Euro 5 Regulations

The Wall St Urinal had a motorcycle comparison between the R nine T scrambler and an all electric Zero DSR in the Sat May 13 edition. It gave the BMW a two thumbs up. But, what I found most informative was the discussion on current Euro 4 regulations and up and coming Euro 5 regulations. Any brand that wants to sell to the Euro zone must meet these standards. Euro 5 will go into effect in 2020. There will be even more restrictions on noise and emissions. Long story short, the article said that while the BMW beat out the all electric bike today, soon there will be no combustion engine to compete. I'm thinking for a dinosaur like me, I better pick up my last good bike by 2019. I have ridden electric bikes. They accelerate like no other. But I'm sorry, I like my carbon units and will give them up when they pry my cold dead fingers from the handle bars.

What about when Supper capacitor technology gets developed to the point that a recharge takes the same amount of time as it takes to dump 5 gallons of dino juice in your tank?

A generation from now (20 yrs) we (the vast amount of current member of this board) will be retirered from riding so by mere attrition the bikes of yesterday & today will be off the road.

You can't stop progress.....

I'll be picking up my 2016 Zero DSR this Saturday (Lord willing & the creek don't rise)

You can't stop progress.....

After owning a Ford C-Max hybrid for a few years, which was bought NOT for the hybrid but for other reasons, I am absolutely fascinated with this technology. We have Tesla cars running 10 second quarter miles out of the showroom. I think until there are charging stations in numbers like gas stations we will continue to see "hybrid" technology. But if you have not driven one of the better performing ones you simply won't believe the power they have. I embrace the electric drive......

I don't tour, currently, and 90% of my riding is commuting (the other 10% is track days). Right now I'm riding a Burgman 650, but after that goes away the two top contenders are some sort of electric (my work garage has plug-ins) or a 250/300cc small sport bike of some kind. On the track, I'm going back down in cc's because the tires are cheaper, the parts are cheaper, and you can be heavy-handed on the throttle and not end up on your ear. I owe no allegiance to any type of motor or any particular exhaust note, so if some bright enterprising person invents an electric motard that can be recharged quick enough to do a full set of track days, I might buy it. Alta seems to be getting close, although the purchase price is a little high for me.

We are already seeing the demise of engines. BMW's 650 singles are no more. And I don't know if the boxer will survive 2020.

But...if any of you remember the talk around Harley's V-Rod...the traditional V-twin was doomed, et cetera. And my nephew, who has one, says H-D dropped the V-Rod last year. So BMW may put some effort and keep the boxer around.

We have been spared the Euro emissions for motorcycles here in the USA, but it has affected what European makes offer us. Who knows how long that will continue?

I wonder what it costs to replace the batteries in one of those electric babies?

Electric tractors / combines for farming?

"I think until there are charging stations in numbers like gas stations we will continue to see "hybrid" technology"

Fascinating technology, until the grid goes down.

I have the best of both worlds sitting my driveway.....Chevy Volt

Runs on electric for ~50 miles and then kicks in a gas engine running as a generator to extend the range. I've had it since the last weekend in July and put 23k miles on it so far with almost 17k of that being purely electric. In the real world, that translates into putting about 8 gallons of gas in it every 1200-1800 miles. It has been fantastic so far and you couldn't pay me to back to a regular gas vehicle. The icing on the cake is the 300 ft-lbs of torque it has all the time, and there are very few vehicles on the road that can beat it off the line. In stop and go traffic it accelerates like nothing else I've ever driven and is completely silent when it does it.

I say bring on the electric drivetrain in everything. The technology isn't there yet for any sort of touring application, but it will get there eventually and it will be awesome.

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We have been spared the Euro emissions for motorcycles here in the USA, but it has affected what European makes offer us. Who knows how long that will continue?

I'm assuming that BMW will be able to continue building/selling gasoline bikes outside of EUR for a few years beyond 2020 as long as there's a market. German bikers likely will be sad to see new F, R and S bikes available everywhere but in the fatherland.

http://bmwmcmag.com/2016/10/new-bmw-motorrad-factory-starts-production-in-brazil/

I have the best of both worlds sitting my driveway.....Chevy Volt

 

... In stop and go traffic it accelerates like nothing else I've ever driven and is completely silent when it does it.

Silence isn't always golden in the bike/automotive world. Just like there will always be a market for obnoxious elephant-farting Harleys, there will always be a market for big-V8-sounding cars. I love the sound of my RT and the exhaust purr of my '04 325 convertible with the top down.

Personally, as a regular downtown pedestrian in crosswalks I dread Priuses creeping up silently behind me as they turn. At least some, low "presence"/idling external sound should be mandated for safety, IMO. That said, I dread silent, reckless terrorist-bicyclists even more.

The Volt actually has a weird spaceship whooshing noise it makes when traveling below 35mph. You can't really hear it while driving unless you have the windows down and the radio off, but I notice it when my wife takes it on evening errands and I happen to be outside. It is supposed to be a pedestrian awareness device and emits from the same speaker as the horn.

As far as the silence not being golden.....I was of the same thought.....until I started driving something silent 600+ miles a week. Now I hate driving just about anything with a standard engine. You get addicted to the throttle response and instant acceleration. Not that there isn't a place for a loud growling weekend toy, but for a daily driver, I'll take the silent sleeper that smokes the noisy V8 any day.

Speaking of electric cars, an electric supercar, NIO EP9, has just set a new production car lap record for the Nürburgring Nordschleife. In-car video of the complete lap is fascinating to watch.

Speaking of electric cars, an electric supercar, NIO EP9, has just set a new production car lap record for the Nürburgring Nordschleife. In-car video of the complete lap is fascinating to watch.

Wow....thats impressive, as are the specs on the car

"The electric motors that deliver a whopping 1,341 horsepower and 1,092 pound-feet of torque. It can go from 0 to 124 miles per hour (mph) in 7.1 seconds and attains a top speed of 194 mph."

Like clutchless transmissions.....everyone scoffs until they start turning faster lap times than the most skilled drivers are capable of.

An electric bike with some sort of a CVT or direct drive with more torque than any bike you have ever ridden will change a LOT of minds. It will be whisper quiet and oh so smooth with perfect throttle response. There will still be traditionalists that insist on shifting themselves and making noise, but many will convert, and it will attract new buyers to the sport.

Had a fun conversation yesterday with one of our old "graybeards" at work with regards to new technology and old skills. It kinda came to this. You could be the best blacksmith in the world......congratulations, its a fascinating skill that takes years - decades to master. What does that typically get you? A cool bragging point, but really nothing more than a side show job at the local Renaissance Fair. Time marches on

To each his own. A close friend (a Californian who drives a Honda CRV with CVT) longs for the arrival of driverless electric cars. To him, cars are simple transportation to get from A to B and he acknowledges but doesn't share my lifelong joy of driving manual transmission/clutch cars and motorcycles.

I was impressed by a test-drive of my sister's Prius last year but it's like driving a Jetsons commuter appliance. Of course there's a market for that but it seems that Prius sales have nosedived. A long-needed increase in the federal gas tax would help sales but then again, the dang thing is really ugly to me but that's a separate point.

I no longer commute but I did for decades with a manual trans. For me driving isn't about raw power or lap times or off-the-line dragging -- rather it's about the seat-of-the-pants experience of the driver's direct physical "connection" to the engine and suspension that only a clutch and hydraulic steering (rather than numb electric steering and CVT) can provide. I guess my kind will be going the way of the dodo!

For me driving isn't about raw power or lap times or off-the-line dragging -- rather it's about the seat-of-the-pants experience of the driver's direct physical "connection" to the engine and suspension that only a clutch and hydraulic steering (rather than numb electric steering and CVT) can provide.

They started pushing the true motorists out when they forced us to switch from tillers to those blasted wheels!

For me driving isn't about raw power or lap times or off-the-line dragging -- rather it's about the seat-of-the-pants experience of the driver's direct physical "connection" to the engine and suspension that only a clutch and hydraulic steering (rather than numb electric steering and CVT) can provide.

 

They started pushing the true motorists out when they forced us to switch from tillers to those blasted wheels!

Not to mention horses. Once we gave up vehicles that can poop, it was all down hill.

I was impressed by a test-drive of my sister's Prius last year but it's like driving a Jetsons commuter appliance. Of course there's a market for that but it seems that Prius sales have nosedived. A long-needed increase in the federal gas tax would help sales but then again, the dang thing is really ugly to me but that's a separate point.

Say what you like about the Prius (I hate them), but they're skinny. Lane splitting would be so much easier if every cager drove a Prius!

To each his own. A close friend (a Californian who drives a Honda CRV with CVT) longs for the arrival of driverless electric cars. To him, cars are simple transportation to get from A to B and he acknowledges but doesn't share my lifelong joy of driving manual transmission/clutch cars and motorcycles.

 

I was impressed by a test-drive of my sister's Prius last year but it's like driving a Jetsons commuter appliance. Of course there's a market for that but it seems that Prius sales have nosedived. A long-needed increase in the federal gas tax would help sales but then again, the dang thing is really ugly to me but that's a separate point.

 

I no longer commute but I did for decades with a manual trans. For me driving isn't about raw power or lap times or off-the-line dragging -- rather it's about the seat-of-the-pants experience of the driver's direct physical "connection" to the engine and suspension that only a clutch and hydraulic steering (rather than numb electric steering and CVT) can provide. I guess my kind will be going the way of the dodo!

I get your argument 100%. I'm a gearhead. This is the first non-manual transmission car I've ever owned. I think what gets lost in the text here is that not everything is a Prius. A Prius drives like an underpowered econo box, because thats what it was built to be. Things are changing. It won't be long before someone throws out an "affordable" electric vehicle that is RWD and has a properly tuned suspension. As soon as that day comes, I will buy it.

I had rental cars with CVT's in them and they were horrible. They were matched up with underpowered 4-cylinder engines and felt like the drivetrain had some sort of twisted up rubber band between the gas pedal and the drive wheels. That isn't the case with an electric drivetrain. Think about it like this.....you know where the RPM sweet spot is for the motors you drive.....car and bike. Its usually that spot where the torque peaks out and is nice and flat. Thats where you like to do your aggressive riding/driving in the twisties. Now, imagine you were at that spot 100% of the time regardless of speed, gear, or conditions. Thats what you get when you match electric with a CVT. In the case of my Volt, thats ~300 ftlbs. The driving experience is hard to explain, but its very rewarding to drive. There are some things I don't care for......its FWD, its 3800 lbs, and the suspension is soft and wallowy for my liking. Still, the advantages far outweigh the nit picks. If this drivetrain was tossed into something like a Subaru BRZ or a BMW 3-series I would be in heaven. Once someone does it......its going to be VERY eye opening for a lot of people. Its not an appliance, it actually has some soul

The Rock comments,......

I think what gets lost in the text here is that not everything is a Prius. A Prius drives like an underpowered econo box, because thats what it was built to be.

Exactly! That is why people ask me why I bought the Ford C-Max, thinking it is like a Prius. Yes, it is a hybrid. But that is about all they share. One ride in mine and you see what I liked about it.

In an effort to get back to the subject of Euro 5 for motorcycles and away from 4 wheelers, one of the British motorcycle magazines on the rack at some Barnes and Noble bookstores has a different take on the effects of Euro 5: smaller displacement turbocharged engines. Just like in the automotive world, mileage and emissions tests for motorcycles are conducted in the bottom half of the rpm range, allowing manufacturers to game the system with smaller engines to meet the testing requirements and turbos for the performance demands. Real world mileage and emissions probably won't be any better that larger displacement normally aspirated engines, but the bureaucrats will be happy.

In an effort to get back to the subject of Euro 5 for motorcycles and away from 4 wheelers, one of the British motorcycle magazines on the rack at some Barnes and Noble bookstores has a different take on the effects of Euro 5: smaller displacement turbocharged engines. J

I am all for smaller engines again if the weight comes down too. granted the real weight queens are big V twins, neither American brand seems to want to be first in reducing weight, each generation getting heavier. It is the biggest fault I have with my Road King, it has no right weighing as much as it does.

IMHO - Less weight is great unless riding on the highway.

Even pushing around 700lbs, tractor trailers blow me around enough as it is...

To each his own.

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I no longer commute but I did for decades with a manual trans. For me driving isn't about raw power or lap times or off-the-line dragging -- rather it's about the seat-of-the-pants experience of the driver's direct physical "connection" to the engine and suspension that only a clutch and hydraulic steering (rather than numb electric steering and CVT) can provide. I guess my kind will be going the way of the dodo!

Victory (Brammo) has an electric motorcycle for you (6 speed gearbox).

I wonder what it costs to replace the batteries in one of those electric babies?

..........

I hope to not (personally) find out......

With the Power Pack, cells last 2,500 full charge/discharge cycles before hitting 80-percent capacity, yielding as much as 331,000 miles on the original power pack, according to Zero.

From here

I keep looking at the Zero models, there is a dealer just a block away from the BMW dealer. I think one of these would be fun for urban errands, but that would probably only be 1-2 thousand miles a year. So my concern is not with the charging cycle life, but with the "time" life. I've had several lithium battery powered devices that needed new batteries every couple of years, even with (or because of) light use. The cost of ownership could increase dramatically if a new battery pack is needed every few years.

Thats not the batteries per se.....that is the poor engineering and/or cost cutting that went into the battery management electronics. If the batteries are properly cared for, they will last a VERY VERY long time. Probably longer than whatever they are installed in. Problem is, they cut corners and/or cost to get the maximum run time and fastest charging possible. As soon as you do that, the life of the battery is greatly effected......especially when you throw in temperature extremes.

For instance.....GM installed a complete HVAC loop in the Volt just to heat/cool the battery pack to keep it at optimum operating temperature. That goes for when driving it AND charging it. When my car is charging on a hot day, there are all kinds of clicks, whirs, and fans cycling on/off when it is just sitting in the driveway.

Those are the right questions to ask though, because they will either give you a straight well thought out answer or change the subject. That should be your answer. The battery management system is more important than the battery to me.

Most manufacturers that have lithium packs in them could care less about getting more than 2+/- years out of whatever they have sold you because at that time they want to sell you a complete new one (i.e....cell phones).

Some auto makers did the right thing (GM), and some didn't (Nissan). Plenty of Volts on the road built in 2011-2012 with well over 150k miles on them and zero noticeable battery degradation. The Nissan Leaf is the polar opposite, especially ones in warmer climates. Some were seeing 25-30% range loss in as little as 5 years. They both use the same battery cell chemistry, but GM did a better job of pack management.

It will certainly be interesting to see what these E-bike manufacturers come up with and how they address it.