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#987344 - 05/17/17 02:51 AM Are the TBs To Blame or Not?  
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Claudio Offline
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Claudio  Offline
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Winnipeg, MB, Canada
I've read all the posts on TB rebuild and am not sure if my bike is in need of it so I thought I would reach out to the wisdom of the group.

Bike: 2003 R1150RT, 120,000 kms on the Odometer

Recent symptoms that were corrected with new stick and secondary coils + new secondary plug wires included weak start, sluggish performance, almost stalling after start until running at temp (bogging down).

I had the TB balanced and cleaned prior to replacing the secondary coil myself but not since then. The tech had been messing with idle speed and TB tuning (I think) to compensate for bad coils.

The last minor symptoms I have left is:
1. Slightly rougher idle with a bit of random fluctuation of the RPM (+/- 100 RPM) from idle at 1,100 RPM.
2. When I apply the throttle just enough to remove the free play from the cable, I hear a "nice" loud clapping sound that I presume are the TBs. This becomes apparent at the moment the free-play is removed. The "clapping" disappears at slightly higher RPMs (~1500+).

Possibly Unrelated
3. Exhaust smells rich/gas when first started.
4. When I put my bike away after a hot ride, it fills the garage with a strong gas scent. No signs of a leak in the quick disconnects.

I suspect the TBS may be "leaky" (air passing) and worn (rattle) but have no experience messing with them so I may be way off.

Any diagnosis wisdom would be appreciated. I am pretty sure I could handle the TB rebuild myself but my tuning/balancing skills are non-existent so I'd take it in for that.

Last edited by Claudio; 05/17/17 03:01 AM.

Silver 2003 R1150RT, BMW MOA Member
#987346 - 05/17/17 04:44 AM Re: Are the TBs To Blame or Not? [Re: Claudio]  
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Boomer343 Offline
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Boomer343  Offline
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Alberta, Canada
Depending on how full my tank is after a heat soak in the garage I also get a fuel smell. Not sure if the American bikes with the canister have the same result.

One upgrade I did on my 03 was to put the stick coils on a separate circuit as the factory did with some late 03's and all the 04's. This mod takes the stick coils out of the key switch circuit and gives them clean power on their own circuit.

Along with the exif to alter the fuel mapping the coil circuit made the biggest improvements in my bike and like you I had put in new stick coils.

I haven't had the need to repair the tb's so will let others advise on that.


Moto Longa - Vita Brevis
#987347 - 05/17/17 07:53 AM Re: Are the TBs To Blame or Not? [Re: Boomer343]  
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Claudio Offline
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Claudio  Offline
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Winnipeg, MB, Canada
Originally Posted By: Boomer343
Depending on how full my tank is after a heat soak in the garage I also get a fuel smell. Not sure if the American bikes with the canister have the same result.


I too have noticed a correlation to fuel level and smell level. It seems to be stronger the emptier the tank is. Sometimes it is soo strong I worry about sparking up fumes in the enclosed garage.


Silver 2003 R1150RT, BMW MOA Member
#987351 - 05/17/17 11:25 AM Re: Are the TBs To Blame or Not? [Re: Claudio]  
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dirtrider Offline
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Morning Claudio]

Bike: 2003 R1150RT, 120,000 kms on the Odometer

Recent symptoms that were corrected with new stick and secondary coils + new secondary plug wires included weak start, sluggish performance, almost stalling after start until running at temp (bogging down).--OK, we will try o address this problem.

I had the TB balanced and cleaned prior to replacing the secondary coil myself but not since then. The tech had been messing with idle speed and TB tuning (I think) to compensate for bad coils.--The coils shouldn't effect the TB balance as the TB balance is based on intake vacuum not cylinder power.

The last minor symptoms I have left is:

1. Slightly rougher idle with a bit of random fluctuation of the RPM (+/- 100 RPM) from idle at 1,100 RPM.--Could be normal, could be a slightly dripping fuel injector, could be the wrong or missing CCP in the fuse box, could be the o2 sensor not responding correctly (especially at you mileage), could be ????

2. When I apply the throttle just enough to remove the free play from the cable, I hear a "nice" loud clapping sound that I presume are the TBs. This becomes apparent at the moment the free-play is removed. The "clapping" disappears at slightly higher RPMs (~1500+).--This is pretty normal as you have lifted the TB cams just slightly off the idle stop screws so the harsh Boxer intake pulses deflect the throttle plates just enough to cause the TB cams to rattle on the stop screws.

Possibly Unrelated

3. Exhaust smells rich/gas when first started.--This might also be normal as the fueling does run rich at cold start up. Or if excessive then you could have a dripping fuel injector when parked, or your CCP is incorrect or missing, or your fuel tank venting is restricted & over pressurizing the fuel tank when parked, or you are still running winter gasoline in warm weather, or ?????

4. When I put my bike away after a hot ride, it fills the garage with a strong gas scent. No signs of a leak in the quick disconnects.-- Again possibly a dripping fuel injector, or the fuel tank venting is not working correctly, or you have a slight fuel leak but the fuel is evaporating before it can puddle, or one of the in-tank small hoses is seeping fuel into the water drain hose or tank vent hose (both of those hoses pass through the fuel in the tank). Or you have a leaking fuel tank gas cap seal (I have seen a few of these over the years)

I suspect the TBS may be "leaky" (air passing) and worn (rattle) but have no experience messing with them so I may be way off.--As a rule the TB shafts & bushing do get a bit of wear as bike's mileage gets higher but the unless excessive it doesn't cause any issues. Even if the TB's do leak a little air at closed-throttle idle about all that does is raise the idle RPM's a little. Above idle the throttle plates are open anyhow so a little TB shaft/bushing wear usually causes no problems while riding the bike.

Any diagnosis wisdom would be appreciated. I am pretty sure I could handle the TB rebuild myself but my tuning/balancing skills are non-existent so I'd take it in for that.-- Lets start with the CCP, does your bike still have the correct CCP in the fuse box (usually pink in color)?

Does your bike have an evap can hanging from the RH rear of the frame (looks like a black can with hoses going to it)?

Have you put fresh gasoline in in since the weather warmed up?

Any sign of a wooshing sound when you open the fuel tank cap after riding the bike for a while? Or does the gas cap appear stuck shut when trying to open it after riding the bike for while?

Any signs of moisture or smell coming from the small hoses that exit behind the R/H riders foot peg?

Have you done a new TPS re-learn to see if that helps?

Does your bike still have the original o2 sensor (at your mileage that might be getting lazy, poisoned, or dead).

You have a LOT going on in one post here so we might have to go after each thing one at a time in separate threads.


D.R. ___
Sent from my rotory dial wall phone!
#987376 - 05/17/17 04:29 PM Re: Are the TBs To Blame or Not? [Re: dirtrider]  
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Claudio Offline
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Claudio  Offline
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Winnipeg, MB, Canada
Thank you for taking such care/time in your response. Greatly appreciated. I'll look into a few items that I haven't yet from your advice and report back.


Silver 2003 R1150RT, BMW MOA Member
#987411 - 05/18/17 12:07 AM Re: Are the TBs To Blame or Not? [Re: Claudio]  
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Lowndes Offline
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Roswell, GA
Claudio,

IF you are having an issue with the injectors, per what DirtRider describes above, you might consider 1) having your injectors cleaned and flow tested, or 2) replacing your injectors with a pair of tested and matched EV14 injectors (R1200GS type).

Contact Keith Gibbons at Injector-Rehab, keith@injector-rehab.com.

I have done this with my '99 R1100S and RT and am very pleased with the results. He has the adapters, new and refurb injectors, and provides test reports on all injectors.


Old Fart Newbie
#987497 - 05/19/17 03:29 AM Re: Are the TBs To Blame or Not? [Re: Claudio]  
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Claudio Offline
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Claudio  Offline
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Winnipeg, MB, Canada
Ok. Here is my update.

I am going to not focus on the TBs based on DRT's synopsis but there is merit in the other possibilities.

Some updates:
O2 Sensor - replaced within last 3 years by yours truly.
Fuel Lines / Fuel Pump Plate Gasket - I inspected last year along with new seals when I serviced the fuel filter. Everything looked normal.
Evap Canister - Not on my bike
CCP - Original still in place, never touched it (I am the second owner of the bike and have had it since 14,000 kms.
Gas - on my second tank since winter.
Tank Pressure - no signs of abnormal pressure.
Smell Location - Nothing notable from the R/H riders foot peg, smell seems to be concentrated over the tank/general area above the engine.
I *think* my fuel mileage is down/poor (not sure)

Next Steps I think I am going to try:
TPS Relearn - Will try it this weekend.
- Measure fuel efficiency on next opportunity (highway ride).
- Inspect/replace tank/cap seal (cheap and easy).
- Replacing the injectors outright seems like a reasonable idea given that its fairly straightforward and may resolve the issue without agonizing troubleshooting.

Injector
- I'll check with the suggested source (above)...thanks!
- Anyone have experience with the injectors from www.euromotoelectrics.com (I've purchased other items from them and been very happy w quality and order process)?


Last edited by Claudio; 05/19/17 03:39 AM.

Silver 2003 R1150RT, BMW MOA Member
#987507 - 05/19/17 11:08 AM Re: Are the TBs To Blame or Not? [Re: Claudio]  
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dirtrider Offline
The Oracle
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[quote=Claudio]Ok. Here is my update.

Morning Claudio


O2 Sensor - replaced within last 3 years by yours truly.--Was the o2 replaced with a BMW o2 or aftermarket? If a replaced with an aftermarket you didn't solder the connections did you? (soldering o2 sensor wires can block proper reference air entry)

Fuel Lines / Fuel Pump Plate Gasket - I inspected last year along with new seals when I serviced the fuel filter. Everything looked normal. Those in-tank hoses can LOOK GOOD one minute then be split the next ride. They usually fail from the inside out.


D.R. ___
Sent from my rotory dial wall phone!
#987549 - 05/19/17 11:12 PM Re: Are the TBs To Blame or Not? [Re: dirtrider]  
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Claudio Offline
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Claudio  Offline
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Winnipeg, MB, Canada
Originally Posted By: dirtrider
[quote=Claudio]Ok. Here is my update.

Morning Claudio


O2 Sensor - replaced within last 3 years by yours truly.--Was the o2 replaced with a BMW o2 or aftermarket? If a replaced with an aftermarket you didn't solder the connections did you? (soldering o2 sensor wires can block proper reference air entry)

I believe it was this one from Bosch. No soldering, came ready to plug and play: http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/product-p/o2-022.htm

Quote:

Fuel Lines / Fuel Pump Plate Gasket - I inspected last year along with new seals when I serviced the fuel filter. Everything looked normal. Those in-tank hoses can LOOK GOOD one minute then be split the next ride. They usually fail from the inside out.

I'll take the wise advice and re-inspect.

Last edited by Claudio; 05/19/17 11:12 PM.

Silver 2003 R1150RT, BMW MOA Member
#987552 - 05/19/17 11:33 PM Re: Are the TBs To Blame or Not? [Re: Claudio]  
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dirtrider Offline
The Oracle
dirtrider  Offline
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Ohio
Originally Posted By: Claudio


Fuel Lines / Fuel Pump Plate Gasket - I inspected last year along with new seals when I serviced the fuel filter. Everything looked normal. Those in-tank hoses can LOOK GOOD one minute then be split the next ride. They usually fail from the inside out.

I'll take the wise advice and re-inspect.


Evening Claudio

You might not have to pull it apart & re-inspect. You can probably do a warm engine/warm fuel return-flow-test.

If you have good fuel return fuel flowing with warm in-tank fuel then your hoses are probably OK.


D.R. ___
Sent from my rotory dial wall phone!
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