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Harley Davidson, death wobble or what not. Good reason to wear gear


fourteenfour

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fourteenfour

Harley Davidson wobble crash, just bad

 

facebook link, all over the HD boards I frequent, guy is okay. Still a debate over what went wrong. Person filming was doing so because they noticed him wobble every time he sped up. We don't think it was the infamous death wobble because this happened going straight

 

 

IMGUR version

Edited by CommuterChris
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Ooh, a lot of grind time! :eek: Not sure what caused it but the 360 spin was actually incredible in a frightening sort of way!

 

Pat

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John in VA

Looks like he did a face plant on the roadway. Painful to watch. Dang -- only a full-face helmet for me ever!

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It looks like he had a real death grip on those bars.

I wonder if the bike might have straightened itself out if he had taken his hands off, or just relaxed his shoulders and arms.

(I know... Probably the last thing on his mind, still...)

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Read the poster's comments, they said he was wobbling when he merged onto roadway, was by them 5-10 miles, and every time he sped up the bike wobbled.

So?

It always did that and this was?

It always did it and this was first time going this fast?

First time doing it and he thought?

He thought it would go away?

Maybe if he went fast enough it would go away?

Bizarre...

Why not stop immediately?

 

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Tough way to get your fifteen seconds but this clip was played on the news, this morning.

 

Pat

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Shiny Side Up
Read the poster's comments, they said he was wobbling when he merged onto roadway, was by them 5-10 miles, and every time he sped up the bike wobbled.

So?

It always did that and this was?

It always did it and this was first time going this fast?

First time doing it and he thought?

He thought it would go away?

Maybe if he went fast enough it would go away?

Bizarre...

Why not stop immediately?

 

Exactly!!!

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In fact somewhere along the way HD beefed up the swing arm assembly on at least their bragger models as lots of folks talked about high speed wobble above 70-80 mph. This was a classic denial of a problem and a quiet design change.

 

Really scary and ATG would have been good to have on at that moment. The bigger question is was it something in his set up (low rear tire pressure) or the infamous wobble that HD claimed didn't exist!

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WOW .... Let me speak from first hand experience with the Harley Death Wobble. Yes ... first hand in that I watched my riding buddy of nearly 20 years crash and die just as that person did in this video for NO reason other than the dreaded Harley Death Wobble. It happened last October in Death Valley (yeah how ironic) on a picture perfect sunny day of about 80 degrees on a smooth surface on Highway 190 just shout of Stove Pipe Wells. We had passed an RV and were a couple of minutes past it. No traffic and we were probably running between 70 and 80 MPH when I looked in my mirror and saw just what you saw in this video. Ron was riding a 2008 Road King CVO which after some research by the CHP was identified as one of the model years susceptible to the Harley Death Wobble. Do a Google search and see for yourself the others who have had similar experiences including a North Carolina State Trooper who was killed. And it is my understanding that trying to just stop does not stop the wobble but can actually make it worse! I still have nightmares having seen him crash in my mirrors. Oh ... and thank the lord for my SPOT since there is no cell service in Death Valley. SPOT works! He was air lifted to Las Vegas Trauma center but died due to internal injuries. This Harley wobble as someone noted is not front end related but swing arm related.

Edited by RTinNC
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Hey- Ed... sorry to hear about your friend- that is awful.

 

Surprised there has not been more chatter about the H-D design issue. Not to mention lawsuits.... but I digress.

 

I was on H-D for many years and my speculation, after seeing the video, was that he had been servicing his own bike and possibly had done a chain adjustment... and failed to get the rear axle bolt torqued properly...

 

it was just a guess. Sorry to see it happen.

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Don Miller

Also noteworthy, Ron was meticulous about having his Road King serviced at HD's recommended service intervals, and ALWAYS having service performed by authorized HD dealership service centers. Even the few accessories on his bike were genuine HD and likewise, installed by HD service technicians.

In the interest of public safety and mitigating further injuries and deaths, it would be nice to see an article in a trade publication as to the cause(s) of the "death wobble" and more importantly, how to recover from one.

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Hey- Ed... sorry to hear about your friend- that is awful.

 

Surprised there has not been more chatter about the H-D design issue. Not to mention lawsuits.... but I digress.

 

I was on H-D for many years and my speculation, after seeing the video, was that he had been servicing his own bike and possibly had done a chain adjustment... and failed to get the rear axle bolt torqued properly...

 

it was just a guess. Sorry to see it happen.

 

Thanks Hopz, there are a few law firms specializing in this type of issue and the family and I actually spoke to one such firm. The issue noted by the attorney I spoke to was this wobble usually surfaces later in the bike's life and the number of variables at that time make it hard to prosecute and easy for the manufacturer to defend. Things like accessories added, maintenance performed, etc. While the goal was to do battle with Harley what the law firm suggested was usually they go after a dealer for the service performed. Sad but I suspect that is more common.

 

Lots of info on the internet about it and certainly enough to support there really being an issue.

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Morning__

 

This is a well known problem on the older Harley's but if the conditions are right it can happen to about any bike.

 

My Electra glide will go into a high speed wobble if I run up fast on the rear of a tractor trailer then swing out to pass it & catch the air vortices coming off of the trailer. Starts out as a slow oscillation & if unchecked will morph into a full fledged high speed wobble.

(usually only happens at 80mph up & is real bad at 100mph)

 

I can usually get it to go away by (or reduce the oscillations anyhow) by reducing my grip on the handlebars to uncouple my arms & upper body mass from the handle bars (once it starts wobbling the tighter that I grip the bars the worse it seems to wobble)

 

The problem is, if I back off on the throttle that also makes it worse so I have to maintain some bar contact to hold the throttle on. Adding just a little back brake can sometimes help.

 

Straightening the bike up & getting out of the trailer air currents usually stops the wobbling.

 

Here is video of the wobble just starting to happen (watch closely), it sort of self corrects, or the rider is helping to correct it (can't really tell).

 

 

 

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Thanks for the post DR. You are correct on the known issue and occurs at higher speeds. I have watched that video and others on the inter dozens of times. In addition what you note about flowing seems true as Ron slowed but the wobble got worse. Problem is mist riders are not trained on how to deal with wobble situations .

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Joe Frickin' Friday

How far back does the wobble issue go?

 

Back in 1992 a friend and I went to his home in western North Dakota for a weekend. While there, he took his bike (a Yamaha Radian) and I took his dad’s bike, an HD Sportster 883:

 

i-4QshcMg-XL.jpg

 

We rode them from Dickinson to Badlands Nat’l Park, toured a bit, then rode back to his house on the highway. Aaron was screwing around on his bike a bit, doing high-speed bursts here and there. I got the Harley up near 80, and the handlebars started shaking pretty good, scared the living crap out of me. I backed off and kept the speed under 60 the rest of the way to his house. Yikes. Don't know what MY that bike was, but it didn't seem very old when I was using it, so maybe late 1980's?

 

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Missouri Bob

Mitch,

 

From what I have been reading, the "death wobble" is more likely to be found on the bikes with rubber-mounted motors, particularly the FL series. I have to wonder if that Sportster's windshield was the cause of the wobble you experienced.

 

Although I found a lot of Harley wobble information online, I still wonder how common the problem is. In Colorado, there appear to be more Harleys than all other bikes combined. If the wobble occurred often enough, I would expect H-D's sales to tank, the NHTSA to force a recall, and television ads from "concerned" trial attorneys.

 

It would not surprise me if bikes built exactly to specification are completely safe, but when several parameters are at the edge of acceptable, their combined influence makes the bike unstable.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Bob

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My old airhead R100RT had it...the way you tested the old airheads was to get going about 40MPH, take your hands of the handlebars, and hit the center of the handlebars with your fist. I bought the airhead used so had to figure out what caused it and how to fix it.

 

At the time I lived in Ca. There is a guy named Duane Ausherman who lived within a couple of hours. He's pretty famous in the airhead community. Here is one of his articles. I learned from him how to fix my airhead tank slap...which was quite scary.

 

http://w6rec.com/how-to-measure-stiction-of-forks-of-a-bmw-motorcycle/

 

The fix for my airhead was fork stiction was fixed and the head bearings were a bit loose and as such the slack had caused them to wear. After correcting those two things...no more tank slap could be found or induced.

 

Edit...I found his article on wobble....it's pretty far down the page so just page down a bit past the war stories.

 

http://w6rec.com/testing-bmw-motorcycle-for-wobbles/

 

 

Edited by Skywagon
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Mitch,

 

From what I have been reading, the "death wobble" is more likely to be found on the bikes with rubber-mounted motors, particularly the FL series. I have to wonder if that Sportster's windshield was the cause of the wobble you experienced.

 

Although I found a lot of Harley wobble information online, I still wonder how common the problem is. In Colorado, there appear to be more Harleys than all other bikes combined. If the wobble occurred often enough, I would expect H-D's sales to tank, the NHTSA to force a recall, and television ads from "concerned" trial attorneys.

 

It would not surprise me if bikes built exactly to specification are completely safe, but when several parameters are at the edge of acceptable, their combined influence makes the bike unstable.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Bob

 

Bob ... you are correct that the noted "Harley Death Wobble" was linked to FL series Harleys built in the mid 2000's up to about 2012 ... not sure about the exact dates. And yes it was related to the manner in which the motor was mounted to the frame and swing arm.

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Mitch,

 

From what I have been reading, the "death wobble" is more likely to be found on the bikes with rubber-mounted motors, particularly the FL series. I have to wonder if that Sportster's windshield was the cause of the wobble you experienced.

 

Although I found a lot of Harley wobble information online, I still wonder how common the problem is. In Colorado, there appear to be more Harleys than all other bikes combined. If the wobble occurred often enough, I would expect H-D's sales to tank, the NHTSA to force a recall, and television ads from "concerned" trial attorneys.

 

It would not surprise me if bikes built exactly to specification are completely safe, but when several parameters are at the edge of acceptable, their combined influence makes the bike unstable.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Bob

 

http://www.azfamily.com/story/14896060/some-harley-motorcycles-plagued-by-death-wobble-5-16-2011

 

https://www.2keller.com/library/harley-davidson-wobble.cfm

 

 

 

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The issues with the wobble were unique to the pre 2009 touring models. Harley redesigned the frames starting with the 2010 models.

 

I had 2006 Street Glide, never had a death wobble but when pushed hard it was not very stable. I looked into some of the fixes but decided to get rid of the bike. I wouldn't own or ride one of the pre 2009 bikes again.

 

My 2010 Road Glide and 2014 Road King handled much better and we're stable up to triple digits. I've got a friend who has a 2014 Ultra that I ride from time to time (he Really likes my 1600) and it handles fine as well.

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Bill_Walker

My 2002 Road King would weave slightly in high speed (>70 mph) sweepers, but I never experienced anything anywhere close to what's shown in the video.

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My 2002 Road King would weave slightly in high speed (>70 mph) sweepers, but I never experienced anything anywhere close to what's shown in the video.

 

:rofl:

Sorry...

My GT was rock solid at 140+ in sweepers, and I wouldn't ride a bike that did what I saw in the video.

No way, no how, never, nope.

But, everyone has a right to decide how they want to crash, and what to wear.

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Bill_Walker
My 2002 Road King would weave slightly in high speed (>70 mph) sweepers, but I never experienced anything anywhere close to what's shown in the video.

 

:rofl:

Sorry...

My GT was rock solid at 140+ in sweepers, and I wouldn't ride a bike that did what I saw in the video.

No way, no how, never, nope.

But, everyone has a right to decide how they want to crash, and what to wear.

 

Hey! It's all relative. That was "high speed" for the Road King. Any faster and I was scraping floorboards.

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Shiny Side Up
My 2002 Road King would weave slightly in high speed (>70 mph) sweepers, but I never experienced anything anywhere close to what's shown in the video.

 

:rofl:

Sorry...

My GT was rock solid at 140+ in sweepers, and I wouldn't ride a bike that did what I saw in the video.

No way, no how, never, nope.

But, everyone has a right to decide how they want to crash, and what to wear.

I've owned a lot of Japanese machines - last was an FJR and none ever did what I saw in the video - and I know an FJR can top end over any Harley on the road. I'm with ya' - and I still can't believe the guy kept on riding that motorcycle after the warning signs that were noted.

"But, everyone has a right to decide how they want to crash, and what to wear."

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roadscholar
And it is my understanding that trying to just stop does not stop the wobble but can actually make it worse! I still have nightmares having seen him crash in my mirrors. Oh ... and thank the lord for my SPOT since there is no cell service in Death Valley. SPOT works! He was air lifted to Las Vegas Trauma center but died due to internal injuries. This Harley wobble as someone noted is not front end related but swing arm related.

 

I was on the outskirts of town a few years ago and noticed a Harley dresser coming the other way when an SUV started to pull right out in front of him. He jumped on the brakes hard and it went into a big wobble like I'd never seen before. Once he realized he was clear he let off and the bike straightened up again. It scared the crap out of me, can't imagine what he was thinking.

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I'd describe my 92 Ultra as a slow dancer in high speed sweepers. Nothing alarming, just there. The 09 street glide I has was a completely different motorcycle and the newest Harleys have things dialed in pretty nicely! :thumbsup: Evolution. :clap:

 

Tank slapper, 1981 GS 1100e in 81 up at New England Drag-way. At about a 100 MPH the bike suddenly went into a violent slap that almost threw me from the bike. I don't know what I did other than roll off the throttle that calmed it down. Scared the crap out of me I'll tell ya! :grin:

 

Next run I removed the little bikini fairing and hammered it (was smart back then :grin:) with no issue. :dontknow:

 

Pat

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Next run I removed the little bikini fairing and hammered it (was smart back then :grin:) with no issue. :dontknow:

 

I remember that handle bar mounted fairings were known for, or accused of, causing handling problems but I don't recall any details.

Edited by Green RT
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fourteenfour

Don't confuse the death wobble with the standard instability many bikes have at higher speeds

 

See that video, even BMW can wobble and do it hard.

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Makes sense, I was about 50 lbs lighter back in 81. Suzuki should thank Budweiser & McDonald's for fixing their high speed weave or wobble. :D

 

As Will pointed out I do think in my case it was the bolt on aftermarket fairing. :read:

 

 

Pat

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Don't confuse the death wobble with the standard instability many bikes have at higher speeds

 

See that video, even BMW can wobble and do it hard.

 

I've always considered a tank slapper to be a shake coming from the front of the bike, and the video of hands off riding clearly shows this front wobble on the BMW before reaching lock to lock tank slapping. If the oscillation gets to tank slapping, the rest of the bike can become involved in a wobbling instability as well. In the end using the terms wobble or tank slapper is irrelevant to fact that the machine was showing oscillation instability and was feeding itself to ever larger magnitude oscillations until it became unmanageable.

 

The HD rider appears to ignore the initial wobble suggesting this was not unfamiliar to him and I surmise the wobble had previously subsided on its own as the front initially was maintaining its tracking direction. Whether the rider stiffened his arms and transferred that wobble into steering inputs, or this time the magnitude of the wobble simply became so large it overwhelmed the stability of the front is hard to tell in the video.

 

The take away for me is oscillations = unsafe equipment >>>> Figure out the cause ASAP and fix it now before you get yourself really hurt or killed!

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sardineone

The take away for me is oscillations = unsafe equipment >>>> Figure out the cause ASAP and fix it now before you get yourself really hurt or killed!

 

+1 Control Freak here too! My BMW has had exemplary history of stability over the 46k miles so far and that's the way I like it!

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I had a Honda Valkyrie that would do that but it was very easy to stop. It would scare the hell out of you if you didn't know what to do. A tire change (brand) fixed the problem.

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roadscholar

Had an ST1300 that had a weave on the interstate (usually some amount of dirty air) although it also did it to a lesser extent on back roads w/no traffic. It would start about at 65-70 and get worse the faster you'd go, downright scary at a hun and above. I tried different tire pressures and luggage configurations but nothing I did solved it. Traded it in on a dual-sport : )

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Bill,

Was that at the time the HOnda Authority bikes were known for

that problem?

 

Guess I'm lucky.

5 BMW's, 400,00+ miles, a lot of time above 65-75, and

not a weeble/wobble.

The original K1200RS/GT was like on rails.

Turbulence from trucks on slabs was shrugged off easily.

My R 50, R 75, R 100 were in a different era wrt traffic.

My R 1100 RSL was extremely stable at speeds north of 90 mph.

The GT was so solid, with exceptional braking capabilities, wet or dry.

 

If I had anything like that video I'd pull over and burn the beast on the side of the road.

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Antimatter

The only bad tank slapper I've had was on an '05 ZX-6R at Road America coming out of the chicane after the carousel. I got on the gas and some combination of rear end spin and bumps made the front go all wonky. Only solution was to hammer the gas and get the weight off the front end. Came into the pits and checked the tire pressure, no issues. The long term solution was to back the rear down just a bit. I also had an old Concours that would wobble on deceleration if you took your hands off the bars. The solution there was to change the rear tire. Tires, geometry, and steering head bearings can all be causes of that stuff.

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The only bad tank slapper I've had was on an '05 ZX-6R at Road America coming out of the chicane after the carousel. I got on the gas and some combination of rear end spin and bumps made the front go all wonky. Only solution was to hammer the gas and get the weight off the front end. Came into the pits and checked the tire pressure, no issues. The long term solution was to back the rear down just a bit. I also had an old Concours that would wobble on deceleration if you took your hands off the bars. The solution there was to change the rear tire. Tires, geometry, and steering head bearings can all be causes of that stuff.

 

A lot of sport bikes are prone to oscillation issues as the demand for flickable handling has driven rake and trail numbers to the limit of stability. Wobbling F1 bikes come to mind. I love my '15RT's responsive handing...and the factory installed hydraulic steering damper just to make sure the handle bars mind their manners!

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Antimatter
The only bad tank slapper I've had was on an '05 ZX-6R at Road America coming out of the chicane after the carousel. I got on the gas and some combination of rear end spin and bumps made the front go all wonky. Only solution was to hammer the gas and get the weight off the front end. Came into the pits and checked the tire pressure, no issues. The long term solution was to back the rear down just a bit. I also had an old Concours that would wobble on deceleration if you took your hands off the bars. The solution there was to change the rear tire. Tires, geometry, and steering head bearings can all be causes of that stuff.

 

A lot of sport bikes are prone to oscillation issues as the demand for flickable handling has driven rake and trail numbers to the limit of stability. Wobbling F1 bikes come to mind. I love my '15RT's responsive handing...and the factory installed hydraulic steering damper just to make sure the handle bars mind their manners!

 

Yeah, the Superduke comes form the factory with a steering damper built in. And lots of racing organizations require them, just as a preventative measure.

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Rider1200RT

That's one heck of a frightening situation I don't wish on anyone. If there ever was a case for ATGATT this sure is. It made me cringe looking at that face grinder...

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Happened to me on my '16 GSA recently. The GSA seems to have a "light" front end by design, and adding the weight of 3 months' worth of touring crap doesn't help (yes I had heavy stuff low and/or forward, and it was well secured). It didn't turn into a tank slapper, just a persistent weave that wouldn't stop. I tried gently throttling back, but no joy. I didn't want to use brakes at all so in the end I just pulled in the clutch and let the bike slow itself down. That let it settle down and I breathed a sigh of relief. Then I remembered a video

that suggested that weighting the front (leaning forward) could have helped.

 

Going over 100 on the aerodynamic marvel of a loaded GSA with a rear weight bias probably doesn't rank high in my "good decision" list and probably contributed to my event. I see in the OP's video that the rider had a T-bag on the rear so maybe his weight distribution wasn't optimal either.

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