Clutch replacement, while in there?

So I'm getting slippage in 4/5th, from my research, I'm due for a clutch replacement. Bike is a 96 r1100rsl with 50k on the clock. I understand it is definitely a hell of a job, but I was wondering what else, besides spline lube, I should do while I'm in there that deep? And can I tell before taking her apart if it's just the friction disc or something else (ie to buy before hand just a clutch disc or the whole assembly)

I was planning on getting http://www.beemerboneyard.com/cla25352ck.html

Reason being is I'll be doing this in a location where I'll have two days max, so I can't wait for parts if I noticed something else while I'm in there.

So I'm getting slippage in 4/5th, from my research, I'm due for a clutch replacement. Bike is a 96 r1100rsl with 50k on the clock. I understand it is definitely a hell of a job, but I was wondering what else, besides spline lube, I should do while I'm in there that deep? And can I tell before taking her apart if it's just the friction disc or something else (ie to buy before hand just a clutch disc or the whole assembly)

 

I was planning on getting http://www.beemerboneyard.com/cla25352ck.html

 

Reason being is I'll be doing this in a location where I'll have two days max, so I can't wait for parts if I noticed something else while I'm in there.

Morning ncstatecamp

First off, why is it slipping? You might very well find a front trans input shaft seal or rear main seal seeping when you get in there.

At 50K probably not a bad idea to replace the crankshaft rear main seal. Problem is, a LOT can go wrong when installing the rear main seal.

Is the trans shifting OK & more importantly staying in gear? Lots of possible trans internal issues back in the 96 era.

As for pre-buying clutch parts-- Personally I would hold off until you get it apart. That time frame in 1100 clutch parts had some updates with previous parts not working with the later parts so you REALLY need to know what you have before buying anything new.

You might also inspect, grease, replace the clutch arm throw-out bearing (it is probably pretty dry by now).

A new clutch cable would also be good idea at 50K.

I'm assuming the RSL in 96 had a non-hydraulic clutch - if so, have you checked to make sure the cable adjustment is correct?

I'm assuming the RSL in 96 had a non-hydraulic clutch - if so, have you checked to make sure the cable adjustment is correct

Yeah, I have been following this thread as well and something doesn't add up. I realize that ever rider treats their clutch differently, so wear and usage will vary. But, with that being said I tend to think I am a bit hard on my clutch. When I pulled the R1100RT's clutch (R1100RT's are heavier than the R1100RS's) at around 80K miles, I measured the new clutch plate and the plate with 80K of wear. I compared that to the minimum thickness requirement and I still had 60% of my wear range left of use.

I have to think that it would either be fluid of some sort saturating the clutch or a cable that is just out of adjustment range.

Shawn

If you decide to replace the clutch, you might want to replace the Neutral Safety Switch located inside the rear housing of the tranny.

I'm assuming the RSL in 96 had a non-hydraulic clutch - if so, have you checked to make sure the cable adjustment is correct?

 

 

Yup, was dead spot on from when I replaced the cable a few months back

If you decide to replace the clutch, you might want to replace the Neutral Safety Switch located inside the rear housing of the tranny.

Thanks Ill keep that in mind, got a part number for me?

http://www.maxbmwmotorcycles.com/fiche/DiagramsMain.aspx?vid=51676&vin=0312699

I'm assuming the RSL in 96 had a non-hydraulic clutch - if so, have you checked to make sure the cable adjustment is correct

 

Yeah, I have been following this thread as well and something doesn't add up. I realize that ever rider treats their clutch differently, so wear and usage will vary. But, with that being said I tend to think I am a bit hard on my clutch. When I pulled the R1100RT's clutch (R1100RT's are heavier than the R1100RS's) at around 80K miles, I measured the new clutch plate and the plate with 80K of wear. I compared that to the minimum thickness requirement and I still had 60% of my wear range left of use.

 

I have to think that it would either be fluid of some sort saturating the clutch or a cable that is just out of adjustment range.

 

Shawn

New cable, with spot on adjustments. Anyway to check for fluid saturation?

Morning ncstatecamp

 

First off, why is it slipping? You might very well find a front trans input shaft seal or rear main seal seeping when you get in there.

 

At 50K probably not a bad idea to replace the crankshaft rear main seal. Problem is, a LOT can go wrong when installing the rear main seal.

 

Is the trans shifting OK & more importantly staying in gear? Lots of possible trans internal issues back in the 96 era.

 

As for pre-buying clutch parts-- Personally I would hold off until you get it apart. That time frame in 1100 clutch parts had some updates with previous parts not working with the later parts so you REALLY need to know what you have before buying anything new.

 

You might also inspect, grease, replace the clutch arm throw-out bearing (it is probably pretty dry by now).

 

A new clutch cable would also be good idea at 50K.

No idea why its slipping, but when I twist the wrist in 4/5th mid/higher rpm band the engine surges but I dont accelerate all that quickly (used to though). New cable, in perfect spec.

So if its a rear seal and my clutch is soaked wouldnt I have to replace it anyway?

What all can go wrong? I've never done one.

Trans shifts great, occasionally will shift to neutral when I weak shift (my fault not the bikes) and never had a false neutral between any other gear.

Not really sure what to do on purchasing stuff b.c as I said, I'll only have like 2 days to work on the bike in one spot and parts always take longer then that. But I do understand the issues with parts fitting certain year sets (head gaskets so far), any specifics you could give me relating to clutch parts? Could I just give my vin to a dealer and make sure what im buying is the right part number to my bike?

as for the clutch throwout bearing, got a part number for me? http://www.maxbmwmotorcycles.com/fiche/DiagramsMain.aspx?vid=51676&vin=0312699

Morning ncstatecamp

No idea why its slipping, but when I twist the wrist in 4/5th mid/higher rpm band the engine surges but I dont accelerate all that quickly (used to though). New cable, in perfect spec. --This was more of a statement than a question. Whatever is making it slip now will have a big impact on what needs to be replaced or repaired. You probably won't know that until you take it apart for inspection.

So if its a rear seal and my clutch is soaked wouldnt I have to replace it anyway?--Yes, well you should anyhow. It's small things like this that can really sidetrack a smoothly planned clutch replacement. Especially if you need to wait a week for additional parts to show up.

What all can go wrong? I've never done one.--Leaks, seeps, seal position (seal position effects proper crankcase ventilation) -- special driver with position control is needed so will have to be found or made.

Trans shifts great, occasionally will shift to neutral when I weak shift (my fault not the bikes) and never had a false neutral between any other gear.--This is good news, a lot of transmissions of your bike's era aren't that good.

Not really sure what to do on purchasing stuff b.c as I said, I'll only have like 2 days to work on the bike in one spot and parts always take longer then that. But I do understand the issues with parts fitting certain year sets (head gaskets so far), any specifics you could give me relating to clutch parts? Could I just give my vin to a dealer and make sure what im buying is the right part number to my bike?--If you only have 2 days then you are setting yourself up for possible failure as you most likely won't have all the parts needed on hand. I can't give you any specifics on clutch parts as I have no idea on what is in the bike now. I have a number of old BMW service bulletins on clutch parts updates & changes that caution about mixing parts.

I suppose that IF you are on a very tight time budget you can probably order the entire clutch stack parts, bolts, washers, etc then hopefully it will all go in without issue. It's the mixing of old parts & new parts that can shut you down.

as for the clutch throwout bearing, got a part number for me? --It's called a piston (PN- 23131464167)-- See the following note-- only applies to models that had a bushing on the original push rod. ---This part replaces the older throwout bearing and piston. The 23131464167 is a combined/sealed unit. When installing this part on your older clutch rod, there's a bushing that is not needed and must be removed. Otherwise, replace the clutch rod at the same time as it made for the new 23131464167 part.

If you decide to replace the clutch, you might want to replace the Neutral Safety Switch located inside the rear housing of the tranny.

are you talking about 61 31 2 306 519 GEAR POSITION INDICATOR SWITCH (from 11/93)?

The gear indicator electronics?

Just wanted to double check about the seal you mentioned, is this the one you are talking about 11 11 1 341 087

http://www.maxbmwmotorcycles.com/fiche/DiagramsMain.aspx?vid=51676&vin=0312699

It says there are 2, are they stacked?

Nope. BMW parts fische calls it an Idle Switch. Hold your breath. They are not cheap. Plus, there has been discussion on this board as to whether a new one will last very long. YMMV. This switch fits on the same shaft as the gear indicator switch you mentioned in your post..

06 61 31 2 306 202 IDLE SWITCH 0.08 1 $170.30ADD TO CART

Part Thumbnail

AKA a neutral switch.

ONLY IN CONJUNCTION WITH :

-- 23 31 1 340 363 SHAFT SEAL - 10X22X6 0.01 1 $25.58ADD TO CART

Part Thumbnail Part Thumbnail

Just wanted to double check about the seal you mentioned, is this the one you are talking about 11 11 1 341 087

 

http://www.maxbmwmotorcycles.com/fiche/DiagramsMain.aspx?vid=51676&vin=0312699

 

It says there are 2, are they stacked?

Evening ncstatecamp

Yes there are 2 seals but not stacked as the there MUST be a space left between them as that is where the crankcase vents.

They are not both the same seals as they are different sizes seals p/n- 11111341135 & p/n- 11111341087.

DR, don't the neutral safety and gear indicator switches attach to a different output shaft rather than the main drive shaft?

DR, don't the neutral safety and gear indicator switches attach to a different output shaft rather than the main drive shaft?

Morning Roger C

The are attached to the transmission case but they are stacked then both driven by a stub shaft on the end of the shift drum (shift drum position is how they know what gear the trans is in)

Thanks, DR. Just trying to avoid the confusion of seal part numbers for the OP to order.

PS. I'm gonna live with my "lazy neutral switch" as long as I can.

If my neutral switch is working fine, any reason really to change it? What happens if it goes bad, the light doesn't come on?

As for the dual seals I see on the fische on maxbmw that the second one is from from/97 onward, so my bike being a 96 wouldnt have one yeah?

11 11 1 341 135 SHAFT SEAL - 65X83X7 (from 12/97) 0.04 1 $39.90

Dirt Rider, as for the clutch throwout assembly (rod, bushing, piston, cup) if I got in there, what would be my indicator in needing to replace it? That whole kit comes to an additional 200 (if I replaced all of it). Or does that additional note on piston just mean if you have an old rod (sans the felt) I either need to change the rod to the new style (w/ felt) or just remove the rubber bushing thats on it?

I am told the neutral safety switch in the R series bikes is problematic. It is not if it fails, it's when.

If yours is working fine every time, that is great! I've learned to live with mine and do not depend on it.

I am told the neutral safety switch in the R series bikes is problematic. It is not if it fails, it's when.

 

If yours is working fine every time, that is great! I've learned to live with mine and do not depend on it.

what does it do when it doesnt work?

No "N" light. No ability to start without depressing clutch lever.

I just purchased a 2000 R1100RT 76K miles that has 5th gear clutch slippage when quickly accelerating from steady state. Previous owner said this was occurring two-up so not unexpected. He had clutch, rear main and input seals replaced at 60K although he had unhappy dealer experience. The motorcycle shifts like I expect (I had a K100 30 years ago) with no missed shifts and easy-to-find neutral. Rear clutch adjustment seemed a bit tight (done by feel not gauge) and front adjustment I left a tad loose (cable clutch).

Reading the various fora (very very helpful thank you) I was expecting the worst: rear main and/or input shaft seals leaking. So after procrastinating a week, I started fault isolation. Pulled the air cleaner: upper box dry; lower box had oil film with some liquid oil on left-hand side. Pulled the starter: everything coated in black dust...but no signs of oil anywhere! Clutch plate thickness 5mm although if you said 4.8mm I wouldn't disagree but if you said 4.5mm I would. Shifted into 5th gear and observed operation at various clutch lever positions: everything as expected (I'm familiar with Ford Racing clutches for my 1989 Mustang track car). The little I could see of the input shaft splines looked clean and smooth.

Anomalous findings: (1) sometime between examining the air box and removing the starter I picked up 3/8" play at clutch lever; (2) the outer edge of the metal disk in the center of the diaphragm spring was shiny and felt rough; (3) I found a very small, thin metal sliver in the dust. I'm not bothered by the small amount of oil in the lower air box because this can occur for many reasons including engine wear (170psi in both cylinders), crankcase breather design, and cam and spark timing. I'm hoping it isn't due to improper outer rear main seal installation but I'll determine that when the clutch is out.

This looks like rapid clutch wear so I've ordered the BBY clutch kit ncstatecamp did to ensure all surfaces are flat and spring is fresh. I'll check to see if my piston is the latest version. I'll defer the clutch cable decision to the 78K major service (when I might replace original brake hoses). The neutral and gear position switches are working properly so I'll leave them alone; if they need to be replaced Clymer's said I can do it without transmission removal.

Which leads me to my question: should I approach clutch from rear wheel-final drive-driveshaft-transmission component removal or should I trust those components are working properly (I've done the wheel bearing, etc external tests; all seals were dry and final drive oil and drain plug were clean) and remove them together as one unit?

Of course any suggestions, recommendations and critiques are welcome. Thank you.

Afternoon Bert

You are hijacking someone's else thread here.

If you start a new thread on your problem we will be glad to answer your questions.

Wilco immediately.

Gotcha on the neutral switch, not to worried about that then.

So I guess to reask since the thread went a bit sideways

As for the dual seals I see on the fische on maxbmw that the second one is from from/97 onward, so my bike being a 96 wouldnt have one yeah?

11 11 1 341 135 SHAFT SEAL - 65X83X7 (from 12/97) 0.04 1 $39.90

Dirt Rider, as for the clutch throwout assembly (rod, bushing, piston, cup) if I got in there, what would be my indicator in needing to replace it? That whole kit comes to an additional 200 (if I replaced all of it). Or does that additional note on piston just mean if you have an old rod (sans the felt) I either need to change the rod to the new style (w/ felt) or just remove the rubber bushing thats on it?

ncstatecamp : I replaced the clutch on my 1999 RT at ~97,000 miles. The best advice I can offer is take lots of photos. Twenty-four hours in, with parts strewn all over my garage, I thought I had made a terrible mistake, but having allotted 4 weeks for the job, I actually finished it in ~2 weeks.

At the very end, I found an electrical connector with no mate; pictures proved there never had been anything connected to it.

The other tip is to build a cart of some sort, and strap the transmission/swingarm assembly to it. This lets you roll it back without having to lift it, and more importantly, lets you roll it back for re-assembly. I used a small bottle jack for fine alignment adjustments on the final half inch.

Good luck. Replacing a clutch doesn't require a huge amount of skill, or special tools, just dogged persistence. Be prepared to re-wrap the electrical harness, as the rubber covering is likely to have rotted after 21 years.

My story: Approaching 100,000 miles

Nearly 30,000 miles later, she's running better than ever.