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#995744 - 08/30/17 03:08 PM The Harley State  
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BamaRider Offline
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A article out of a business news feed came across my page yesterday, talking about the troubles at HD.

Sales down almost 10% from year ago, and the new 88 motor not generating much buzz. Their market share under 50% for the first time in who knows when. These were business guys and knew nothing about motorcycles or what could be wrong at HD, so they had no solutions, and were backing off any investment going that way.

I suggest numbers are down because millennials are not impressed with a HD, and us baby boomers, maybe have one more bike left in us before we trade for a golf cart, HD and much of the industry have to plot a way forward.

Honda et all know this, thus the recent input of starter bikes out of Asia. (CB 550). Look, the "wasp looking" bikes are not me, but millennials seem to like that sort of stuff, so you gotta compete for them. Hope to snag a few, and maybe keep them around for 50 years. (me).

I dunno what HD is going to do. If they sit around and wait for them to decide to become "real" motorcyclists and buy into the HD brand, and all that goes with it, might be too late. They are so invested into that, it might need something drastic.

I understand they make a entry level bike, but in the end it is a V twin, and looks like a HD, and I don't see millennials buying it, with all those cheaper, high tech, wasp bikes out there to choose from.

The gen X guys, along a good portion of the baby boomers have gone the dual sport route. A few years ago, no one knew how the sport tourer, ADV market would shake down. Outside of BMW and Yamaha, most treat the sport tourer as after thought, so that decision has been decided. Honda makes 3 dual sport bikes, and dropped the ST. There ya go.

I waiting to see how HD fixes their problem with millennials, because I'd never sell them short on their marketing prowess.

I hope we don't go extinct before I land one of those new wetheads.



Guy
2004 ST 1300 ABS Pearl Blue
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2014 FJR 1300 ES
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#995752 - 08/30/17 06:41 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: BamaRider]  
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Bud Offline
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Spot on thumbsup


95% of an RT.

I haven't had too many Beemers, I just don't have enough time.
#995753 - 08/30/17 07:05 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: BamaRider]  
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The huge assumption being made here is that the alternative to the HD is "wasp" bikes.

The alternative to HD for the millenials might be to gaze lovingly at their tablet phones doing social networking or whatever else.

HD has many different avenues of competition and needs to make motorcycling more exciting and enchanting than an iPad. Mounting the old "iron horse" just doesn't cut it anymore on its own.


R1200RT LE - Ebony
#995755 - 08/30/17 08:00 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: John Bentall]  
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Bud Offline
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Originally Posted By: John Bentall
The huge assumption being made here is that the alternative to the HD is "wasp" bikes.

The alternative to HD for the millenials might be to gaze lovingly at their tablet phones doing social networking or whatever else.

HD has many different avenues of competition and needs to make motorcycling more exciting and enchanting than an iPad. Mounting the old "iron horse" just doesn't cut it anymore on its own.


Or buying RnineT's of one flavor or another. grin


95% of an RT.

I haven't had too many Beemers, I just don't have enough time.
#995757 - 08/30/17 08:06 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: Bud]  
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CommuterChris Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bud
Originally Posted By: John Bentall
The huge assumption being made here is that the alternative to the HD is "wasp" bikes.

The alternative to HD for the millenials might be to gaze lovingly at their tablet phones doing social networking or whatever else.

HD has many different avenues of competition and needs to make motorcycling more exciting and enchanting than an iPad. Mounting the old "iron horse" just doesn't cut it anymore on its own.


Or buying RnineT's of one flavor or another. grin


R9T RT please. Not the big fairing the current one has, something from with a bit more protection than a F800

#995759 - 08/30/17 08:28 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: BamaRider]  
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Bud Offline
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95% of an RT.

I haven't had too many Beemers, I just don't have enough time.
#995768 - 08/30/17 10:11 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: Bud]  
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doesn't fit the bill.

#995776 - 08/31/17 01:26 AM Re: The Harley State [Re: CommuterChris]  
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whistle



Pat


"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do succeed" Curly Howard
#995789 - 08/31/17 03:38 AM Re: The Harley State [Re: BamaRider]  
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I always thought shutting down the Buell line was a mistake. I'd like to see them resurrect that, with some different engine configurations. Like BMW did with the F or K series.... I might look twice at a Buell dual sport single. But what do I know?


I'm a man, and I can change, if I have to, I guess.

Eric
#995792 - 08/31/17 07:09 AM Re: The Harley State [Re: BamaRider]  
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Hank R1200RT Offline
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They need to release the LiveWire electric motorcycle.


Hank Murphy
2013 BMW R1200RT "Gretchen am Spinnrade"
#995803 - 08/31/17 12:58 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: BamaRider]  
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CommuterChris Offline
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Owned a R9T, perhaps bring back the R100RS fairing, something that provides protection just don't need the speakers/etc/etc

#995812 - 08/31/17 02:57 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: BamaRider]  
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BamaRider Offline
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So it's generally agreed HD has a problem with millennials?


Guy
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#995814 - 08/31/17 04:06 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: BamaRider]  
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Originally Posted By: BamaRider
So it's generally agreed HD has a problem with millennials?


Millennials have a problem with Millennials.

#995817 - 08/31/17 04:20 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: BamaRider]  
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The big issue as I see it is cost. Back when I got into motorcycles you could actually buy and ride a motorcycle for less per mile, and with a lower threshold of entry, than you could a car. During the 1990's and 2000's the motorcycle industry decided to concentrate on performance with less concern toward MSRP. All the while, the car industry was managing costs through automation, globalization, and platform standardization. Now, the choice seems to be between a Yamaha R-1 with MotoGP inspired traction control and an economy car with a/c, ABS, and good MPG, or no car at all; communicate with friend on social media and use Uber or transit when you need to physically go somewhere.

I'm old enough to remember being told not to buy a piece of 'Japanese cr@p' when I was looking for my first bike. I think the current OEM's ignore China's first forays into the market at their peril. Here's why: if you go over to the University of MN campus in Minneapolis you'll see a huge number of cheap, Chinese scooters being ridden around. The current generation of college kids might not view Chinese motorcycles with the stigma that today's riders do, and might (when they get established) be willing to buy a modestly priced motorcycle from China. Which could push those factories to improve their productions and make better, cheaper machines. Or not. My suspicion is that if HD doesn't find a way to lower their production costs they'll need to be bought out by some younger investors who know how to appeal to millennial buyers.

#995824 - 08/31/17 05:40 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: TEWKS]  
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Bud Offline
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Originally Posted By: TEWKS
whistle



Pat


If my budget was larger, I would be on that bike!


95% of an RT.

I haven't had too many Beemers, I just don't have enough time.
#995825 - 08/31/17 06:12 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: Antimatter]  
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Joe Frickin' Friday Offline
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Originally Posted By: Antimatter
Back when I got into motorcycles you could actually buy and ride a motorcycle for less per mile, and with a lower threshold of entry, than you could a car.


I think that's still true. The Ninja 300 is currently selling new for $5,000; HD's 750 is selling for $7,600. Fit either one with touring tires, and I think your per-mile cost is going to beat an entry level car.

For the Ninja:
Code:
Miles per year	15000
	
Insurance per year	$250 
insurance cost per mile	$0.017
	
	
purchase cost	$5,000.00
selling cost	$2,000.00
duration	5
cost per mile	$0.040
	
Tire cost	$240.00
Tire life	12000
Tire cost per mile	$0.020
	
MPG	60
gas price	$3.10 
fuel cost per mile:	$0.052
	
Oil change interval:	6000
Oil change cost:	$40 
oil cost per mile:	$0.007
	
Gear	$1,000.00 
Gear life	60000
Gear cost per mile	$0.017
	
	
Ninja total cost per mile:	$0.152


For a Honda Fit:
Code:
Miles per year	15000
	
Insurance per year	$400 
insurance cost per mile	$0.027
	
	
purchase cost	$16,000.00
selling cost	$5,000.00
duration	5
cost per mile	$0.147
	
Tire cost	$200.00
Tire life	35000
Tire cost per mile	$0.006
	
MPG	35
gas price	$3.00 
fuel cost per mile:	$0.086
	
Oil change interval:	6000
Oil change cost:	$30 
oil cost per mile:	$0.005
	
	
	
Honda Fit total cost per mile:	$0.270

#995826 - 08/31/17 06:17 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: BamaRider]  
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Dennis Andress Offline
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On nice weekend days there is an almost continuous stream of Harleys parading along the Puget Sound. They seem to ride a ferry from Seattle, go for a cruise, and then go back home. Most of the riders are young enough to continue doing that for another 10-15 years.

So, there is a demand for loud and shinny things. Maybe the market for new ones is just saturated.

#995828 - 08/31/17 06:25 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: Joe Frickin' Friday]  
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Originally Posted By: Joe Frickin' Friday
I think that's still true. The Ninja 300 is currently selling new for $5,000; HD's 750 is selling for $7,600.


The HD 500 Street is selling for somewhere in the middle of that at $6,899.00

#995829 - 08/31/17 06:52 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: Lone_RT_rider]  
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Joe Frickin' Friday Offline
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Originally Posted By: Lone_RT_rider
The HD 500 Street is selling for somewhere in the middle of that at $6,899.00


Whoops, missed that one on their website, thanks. More than a Ninja, but still much cheaper than a car.

#995831 - 08/31/17 06:55 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: Joe Frickin' Friday]  
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Originally Posted By: Joe Frickin' Friday
Originally Posted By: Lone_RT_rider
The HD 500 Street is selling for somewhere in the middle of that at $6,899.00


Whoops, missed that one on their website, thanks. More than a Ninja, but still much cheaper than a car.


I just spent 4 hours on one this morning taking a class. I can vouch that it's a decent bike for the money.

#995834 - 08/31/17 07:15 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: Lone_RT_rider]  
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Originally Posted By: Lone_RT_rider
Originally Posted By: BamaRider
So it's generally agreed HD has a problem with millennials?


Millennials have a problem with Millennials.


grin
I think the industry will have a problem with Millennials. I just don't see that generation riding bikes. It will be a mad scramble for the remaining market share.


-Mike
'08 GSA
"If I don't like it, I'm not blaming myself!"
K. Greiff
"Anything worth doing is worth overdoing."
M. Jagger
#995835 - 08/31/17 07:23 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: Dennis Andress]  
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Originally Posted By: Dennis Andress
... Maybe the market for new ones is just saturated.


The used Harley supply is enormous so Harley's up against its own bikes. There are so many low-mileage HDs out there it seems the original owners tired of them quickly or just didn't have time for cruising, or they turned out not to be the chick magnets they thought they'd be...?


John
'16 R1200RT (RT #5)
#995836 - 08/31/17 07:24 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: CommuterChris]  
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Originally Posted By: CommuterChris
Owned a R9T, perhaps bring back the R100RS fairing, something that provides protection just don't need the speakers/etc/etc



R100RS! YES, YES, and YES!!!!

I've owned 2 of them and would buy another that had the same old R100RS fairing with all the current engine, suspension improvements in a heartbeat. clap

Dave

#995839 - 08/31/17 07:31 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: greiffster]  
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Paul De Offline
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Originally Posted By: greiffster
Originally Posted By: Lone_RT_rider
Originally Posted By: BamaRider
So it's generally agreed HD has a problem with millennials?


Millennials have a problem with Millennials.


grin
I think the industry will have a problem with Millennials. I just don't see that generation riding bikes. It will be a mad scramble for the remaining market share.


Maybe not. Do the environmental friendly angle. Has better mileage, less resources used to make, etc. Integrate Google glass into the helmet so they can maintain their connection addiction and voila your into that demographic wave


If the good old days were so damn good, why did we bother to invent modern times?

Most missed bike: Bultaco Sherpa T 326
#995840 - 08/31/17 07:35 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: BamaRider]  
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This is one of the most difficult marketing problems I have ever encountered - a company which is handcuffed to the past by an orthodox customer base, and the last young customer walking into the showroom about 20 years ago. The last time we saw this was Cadillac circa 1969. And we all know what happened after that.

The latest reports say HD is killing off the V-Rod platform, too. After 17 years. So basically they're doubling down on the boomer-centric design that has a questionable appeal to anyone that's not deep into AARP territory. Time will tell, but it's not an easy problem, nor are there any easy solutions to it.

-MKL


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#995841 - 08/31/17 07:44 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: Paul De]  
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Originally Posted By: Paul De
Originally Posted By: greiffster
Originally Posted By: Lone_RT_rider
Originally Posted By: BamaRider
So it's generally agreed HD has a problem with millennials?


Millennials have a problem with Millennials.


grin
I think the industry will have a problem with Millennials. I just don't see that generation riding bikes. It will be a mad scramble for the remaining market share.


Maybe not. Do the environmental friendly angle. Has better mileage, less resources used to make, etc. Integrate Google glass into the helmet so they can maintain their connection addiction and voila your into that demographic wave


Except that in most cases, convenience trumps environmentally friendly all day long.


-Mike
'08 GSA
"If I don't like it, I'm not blaming myself!"
K. Greiff
"Anything worth doing is worth overdoing."
M. Jagger
#995844 - 08/31/17 09:40 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: moshe_levy]  
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Dennis Andress Offline
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Originally Posted By: moshe_levy
This is one of the most difficult marketing problems I have ever encountered - a company which is handcuffed to the past by an orthodox customer base, and the last young customer walking into the showroom about 20 years ago. The last time we saw this was Cadillac circa 1969. And we all know what happened after that.

The latest reports say HD is killing off the V-Rod platform, too. After 17 years. So basically they're doubling down on the boomer-centric design that has a questionable appeal to anyone that's not deep into AARP territory. Time will tell, but it's not an easy problem, nor are there any easy solutions to it.

-MKL


Harley's strong suite is marketing, and style. Of all the manufactures I would expect them to be the first to successfully market something new and exciting to a younger generation. Maybe one younger than Millennials.

#995846 - 08/31/17 11:11 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: BamaRider]  
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Bud Offline
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So who is gaining the market share HD is losing?

BMW sales, a drop in the market bucket, continue to increase year after year.

Would love to see some stats from 2016 on sales.


95% of an RT.

I haven't had too many Beemers, I just don't have enough time.
#995851 - 09/01/17 12:09 AM Re: The Harley State [Re: Bud]  
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BMW may yet find a market for this.


#995852 - 09/01/17 12:53 AM Re: The Harley State [Re: Bud]  
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Originally Posted By: Bud
So who is gaining the market share HD is losing?

BMW sales, a drop in the market bucket, continue to increase year after year.

Would love to see some stats from 2016 on sales.


going to have to say their loss is spread across many brands. To me their problem is similar to BMW's problem, their bikes are up in the high side for engine size. BMW has that cool looking G310R coming but they like Harley have little if anything under 10k. The electric scooter may attract some riders too and it is coming to the US now

For HD the Street brand isn't all that exciting, they really need to bring the styling from the new Softtails to the Street line. Indian, while I like the idea of another big twin competitor I don't trust their parent company.

The Japanese brands certainly cover the range quite well, they have sizes from 250/300 all the way to 1800+.

The real danger to HD isn't losing market share, its the losses from failed loans that pile up.

#995854 - 09/01/17 01:04 AM Re: The Harley State [Re: John Bentall]  
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Originally Posted By: John Bentall
The huge assumption being made here is that the alternative to the HD is "wasp" bikes.

The alternative to HD for the millenials might be to gaze lovingly at their tablet phones doing social networking or whatever else.


Or kayaking, or stand-up paddleboarding, or mountain biking, or skateboarding, or going to festivals, or, or, or. They seem to be into things that don't use much gasoline.


"Dry-Town" Crew, San Diego
'15 R1200RT
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#995857 - 09/01/17 01:12 AM Re: The Harley State [Re: elkroeger]  
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Originally Posted By: elkroeger
I always thought shutting down the Buell line was a mistake. I'd like to see them resurrect that, with some different engine configurations. Like BMW did with the F or K series.... I might look twice at a Buell dual sport single. But what do I know?


Buells had their issues, but IMHO, the biggest problem with Buell was that they were sold at H-D dealers. As others have mentioned, the H-D brand has a very strong image that's tied to nostalgia and brand loyalty. And that goes right down to the people working in the dealerships, in my admittedly limited experience (I did have a Road King for 10,000 miles). It never occurred to most people looking for other kinds of bikes to look for them in an H-D dealership, and they wouldn't have felt comfortable there if they did. And the people in the dealership weren't very interested in dealing with people that weren't interested in their tradition, and really had no idea how to sell a Buell.

And that is Harley's problem. To break out of that, they'll have to start (or buy) another brand with a separate dealer network.


"Dry-Town" Crew, San Diego
'15 R1200RT
'12 Kawasaki KLX250S
'04 R1150RT (gone)
'02 Suzuki V-Strom (gone)
#995870 - 09/01/17 01:55 AM Re: The Harley State [Re: BamaRider]  
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As someone noted a few posts back. HD is in a catch 22. They are heavy into their tradition. A concept most millennials care less about. But they have run out of boomers who can/will buy their bikes. So what now? Their bikes have 0 appeal to 99% of most millennials.

I don't have the answer.


Guy
2004 ST 1300 ABS Pearl Blue
2005 1200 RT Red
2014 FJR 1300 ES
2017 CB 1100 EX
www.bamarider.com
#995885 - 09/01/17 11:50 AM Re: The Harley State [Re: BamaRider]  
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Paul De Offline
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What ever to project Live Wire? A clear attempt to leapfrog into a future free of the past genre. Seemed like something pretty cool and styling is not tied to their legacy. The site is active and have a jobs page. Maybe trying to lure a few folks from Johnson Controls, or Rockwell here in town to take a leap of faith... Might work if they don't run into Erik Buell

Might even get some traditionalist if they add a kilowatt of audio power and tie in samples of their gas powered V twin synched to the rheostat (throttle) rofl



If the good old days were so damn good, why did we bother to invent modern times?

Most missed bike: Bultaco Sherpa T 326
#995887 - 09/01/17 12:15 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: Paul De]  
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CommuterChris Offline
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there were rumors back on July 27th of a partnership with Tesla. Livewire hasn't had a real update since 2014 or so. It had a sixty odd mile range which would be wholly unacceptable so perhaps they decided to see what Tesla could offer them.

On closer inspection the Livewire previewed the new Softtails in suspension treatment, even the headlamp and turn signals now appear in the regular lineup

Last edited by CommuterChris; 09/01/17 12:23 PM.
#995905 - 09/01/17 03:12 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: BamaRider]  
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Quote:
Their bikes have 0 appeal to 99% of most millennials.

And myself as a one percenter of the Mid-West Baby Boomers, as I value a contemporary performance envelope. Cruiser style just isn't me as well.

I am a BIG fan of the V-Rod motor's performance. I just wish it was an engineering generation newer in a lighter more compact package for a sport/touring mission profile. Too bad it has been dropped instead of developed into what I just said! cry


You are what you have ridden!
-------------------------------------------------
George Martin
R1200ST(ESA equipped)
#995916 - 09/01/17 03:48 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: BamaRider]  
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I'd like to see Harley do something like the R9T, or R1100S. A 100-120 HP, lightweight, v-twin that's comfortable enough to ride all day. An engine like what Indian has in the Scout, in a sport-touring chassis would be good place to start.

(Sorry about the big picture ^ That caught me by surprise)

#995928 - 09/01/17 05:55 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: Dennis Andress]  
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Harley Davidson will NEVER compete with anyone not in the big twin style cruiser market.

Say what you want, good or bad, but they ( meaning the Motor Company and dealer network ) are not geared to selling ANYTHING beyond lifestyle. While there are some good things about the newer bikes, they are not really doing anything better than they did 10 years ago. Stuck in a rut. Which is ok as long as the market is there. When the market shrinks and profit margins shrink more, there goes the one really outstanding thing about Harley Davidson. The awesome Dealer network!

#995929 - 09/01/17 06:18 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: realshelby]  
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I'd forgotten about their Lifestyle thing. I remember watching a couple walk into a Harley dealership, he goes one way to look at shinny things, and she goes the other to look at clothes.

Yeah, they do have a hard row to hoe...

(Personally, every time a loud Harley hurts my ears I wish they hadn't survived the Great Recession.)

Last edited by Dennis Andress; 09/01/17 06:20 PM.
#995936 - 09/01/17 08:44 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: Dennis Andress]  
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CommuterChris Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dennis Andress
I'd like to see Harley do something like the R9T, or R1100S. A 100-120 HP, lightweight, v-twin that's comfortable enough to ride all day. An engine like what Indian has in the Scout, in a sport-touring chassis would be good place to start.

(Sorry about the big picture ^ That caught me by surprise)


well many in the Harley world were hoping for something to come out of the trademarking of the Sport Glide name. that may be next year if they are lucky.

with regards to what millennials are buying, less than three percent of adults ride.

Last edited by CommuterChris; 09/01/17 08:49 PM.
#995941 - 09/02/17 12:04 AM Re: The Harley State [Re: CommuterChris]  
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Green RT Offline
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I just don't see as much interest in any kind of vehicles in younger generations. When I was 16, everyone wanted to drive. I got a motorbike when I was 13 and a car when I was 15. I had the car before I could get a license to drive it. I spent a year working on it in the garage. Neither of my kids had that kind of interest in cars. My daughter doesn't even own a car although she had a Puch motorbike for awhile. And for my son a car is just a needed appliance like a toaster. My grandson didn't even get a driver's license until he was about 20 years old.

If motorcycle companies are really looking to the future they should probably branch out into other lines of business. Sad to say that, but that is what it looks like to me.


Will

2015 R1200R Cordoba Blue (current)
1999 R1100RT Tundra Green
1987 R100RT Grey
1970 R60/5 Black w/white pin stripes
196? Honda 305 Super Hawk
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#995979 - 09/02/17 02:50 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: Dennis Andress]  
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Got to agree, every time I get behind an HD I get treated to the obnoxious racket as well as the stench of unburned hydrocarbons.

Maybe the future will also see fewer motor homes clogging the roads due to lack of interest by millennials, we can only hope.


James
'93 R1100RSL / '10 FJR1300A
#996368 - 09/08/17 02:43 AM Re: The Harley State [Re: JamesW]  
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Ponch Offline
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Originally Posted By: JamesW
Got to agree, every time I get behind an HD I get treated to the obnoxious racket as well as the stench of unburned hydrocarbons.

Maybe the future will also see fewer motor homes clogging the roads due to lack of interest by millennials, we can only hope.


They take a perfectly running stock bike and turn it into an asphyxiation device. They had a rally here during bike week from Arrowhead HD to Scottsdale with one of the SOA characters leading the charge. It was 10 miles long. I started in the back and got within a mile of the front...I thought I was going to pass out from the polluting exhaust. I have to wonder if those unburnt HC cause ring wear.


Ponch
2009 R1200RT
My Motorrad
BMWMOA 162849
BMWRA 41335
VROC 8109-R
VBA 19
#996374 - 09/08/17 12:53 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: Ponch]  
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Paul De Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ponch
Originally Posted By: JamesW
Got to agree, every time I get behind an HD I get treated to the obnoxious racket as well as the stench of unburned hydrocarbons.

Maybe the future will also see fewer motor homes clogging the roads due to lack of interest by millennials, we can only hope.


They take a perfectly running stock bike and turn it into an asphyxiation device. They had a rally here during bike week from Arrowhead HD to Scottsdale with one of the SOA characters leading the charge. It was 10 miles long. I started in the back and got within a mile of the front...I thought I was going to pass out from the polluting exhaust. I have to wonder if those unburnt HC cause ring wear.


For sure loud exhaust and unburnt the hydrocarbons have me putting a lot of hawgs in my rear view mirror. The Milwaukee 8 motor may mitigate the dirty motor issue, because the older motors came through so anemic to meet sound & emmisions regs it was enevitable that Hawg riders were paying for mods to get the motor to perform well. The new motors deliver the expected performance as delivered. The loud bike thing is another question as this is more of a cruiser culture mind set.

One thing I"ll give kudos to millennials is they are on average more of a we instead of me culture and if they should get the Hawg bug they may not want to be obnoxiously loud when riding. I still think price is a big barrier. These folks came of age in a crap economy and those with a high income potential also have significant debt in front of them to pay off student loans and maybe buy a house... Toys are down the list and the new round of the latest mobile phone will have them cracking into that piggy bank before they get close to the down stroke needed to buy a high dollar motorcycle


If the good old days were so damn good, why did we bother to invent modern times?

Most missed bike: Bultaco Sherpa T 326
#996380 - 09/08/17 03:04 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: BamaRider]  
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Bud Offline
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I was talking with my son this morning about this issue. He pointed out that many younger people would rather car share than own one.

Like the recreational sailing industry, participants are aging out.


95% of an RT.

I haven't had too many Beemers, I just don't have enough time.
#996603 - 09/11/17 01:25 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: Bud]  
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Lone_RT_rider Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bud
I was talking with my son this morning about this issue. He pointed out that many younger people would rather car share than own one.


I think we finally have a generation that cares less about it's personal freedom than the previous one. That, is sad....

Shawn

#996617 - 09/11/17 03:25 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: Bud]  
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TN_R11_Girl Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bud
I was talking with my son this morning about this issue. He pointed out that many younger people would rather car share than own one.

Like the recreational sailing industry, participants are aging out.


I have a 21 year old nephew and an 18 year old niece ... neither of whom even bothered to get their drivers licenses. That would have been inconceivable to me as a kid!


Shannon IBA 44616
'04 R11S (Roadrunner)
'69 F250 (Beast)
'09 328iX (Bebe)
"Tact: The art of telling someone to go to hell in such a manner that he anticipates the trip." Unknown
#996631 - 09/11/17 05:40 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: Lone_RT_rider]  
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Originally Posted By: Lone_RT_rider
Originally Posted By: Bud
I was talking with my son this morning about this issue. He pointed out that many younger people would rather car share than own one.


I think we finally have a generation that cares less about it's personal freedom than the previous one. That, is sad....

Shawn


Shawn, I think you hit nail on the head.

#996634 - 09/11/17 06:15 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: Dennis Andress]  
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JohnH VA Offline
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Inside The Beltway
Originally Posted By: Dennis Andress
Originally Posted By: Lone_RT_rider
Originally Posted By: Bud
I was talking with my son this morning about this issue. He pointed out that many younger people would rather car share than own one.


I think we finally have a generation that cares less about it's personal freedom than the previous one. That, is sad....

Shawn


Shawn, I think you hit nail on the head.


Doesn't seem sad to me but admirably sensible -- owning and maintaining a car is their personal choice based on need, where they live and if/how they commute. Some don't particularly like driving and there's less peer pressure to own cool wheels compared to previous generations.

Some kids can't wait to drive; some kids don't care much. I don't think that defines or reflects a generational care about personal freedom.


John
'16 R1200RT (RT #5)
#996638 - 09/11/17 06:31 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: JohnH VA]  
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Dennis Andress Offline
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Originally Posted By: JohnH VA
Originally Posted By: Dennis Andress
Originally Posted By: Lone_RT_rider
Originally Posted By: Bud
I was talking with my son this morning about this issue. He pointed out that many younger people would rather car share than own one.


I think we finally have a generation that cares less about it's personal freedom than the previous one. That, is sad....

Shawn


Shawn, I think you hit nail on the head.


Doesn't seem sad to me but admirably sensible -- owning and maintaining a car is their personal choice based on need, where they live and if/how they commute. Some don't particularly like driving and there's less peer pressure to own cool wheels compared to previous generations.

Some kids can't wait to drive; some kids don't care much. I don't think that defines or reflects a generational care about personal freedom.


Not owning a car in an urban area is perfectly sensible.
Not caring about personal freedom is sad.

#996641 - 09/11/17 06:52 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: Dennis Andress]  
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marcopolo Online
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I believe we have a generation which is less interested in owning vehicles, but I don't see how not owning a vehicle, be it a car, or a motorcycle, has anything to do with "personal freedom". Maybe I don't understand what the point was.

Last edited by marcopolo; 09/11/17 07:17 PM.

Mark
2015 R 1200 GS Adventure
#996654 - 09/11/17 10:19 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: Lone_RT_rider]  
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Originally Posted By: Lone_RT_rider

I think we finally have a generation that cares less about it's personal freedom than the previous one.


I don't think that's the case at all. Their definition and perception of freedom is just different than yours/ours.

Their freedom is not to have a car payment, not to have to struggle with parking, not to have to worry about car maintenance, freedom to travel, party, work etc. withput ever having to worry where is MY car, how to get back home etc.
Owning and having to "drag along" your own car is to them like dead weight that makes them less agile. Less free.

They just look at things differently, with focus on doing things instead of owning things.

And "they" in the context of this reply = twenty something young adults who live & work in bigger cities.

#996838 - 09/14/17 02:24 AM Re: The Harley State [Re: FlyingFinn]  
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Paul De Offline
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Originally Posted By: FlyingFinn
Originally Posted By: Lone_RT_rider

I think we finally have a generation that cares less about it's personal freedom than the previous one.


I don't think that's the case at all. Their definition and perception of freedom is just different than yours/ours.

Their freedom is not to have a car payment, not to have to struggle with parking, not to have to worry about car maintenance, freedom to travel, party, work etc. withput ever having to worry where is MY car, how to get back home etc.
Owning and having to "drag along" your own car is to them like dead weight that makes them less agile. Less free.

They just look at things differently, with focus on doing things instead of owning things.

And "they" in the context of this reply = twenty something young adults who live & work in bigger cities.


Going far from the original topic but what you describe is nothing new, each generation letting their freedom flag fly and all...but in the end all become invested in something. Soon enough, there is something to loose and they become the establishment. So, then how does an established company capture the freedom of those who have willingly forgone foot loose and fancy free for a more rooted life. So maybe sell cheap time shares and entice those who would consider owning their own with he freedom to fit that ride in between their gigs, kids and other commitments. OK now I'm depressed!


If the good old days were so damn good, why did we bother to invent modern times?

Most missed bike: Bultaco Sherpa T 326
#996845 - 09/14/17 09:47 AM Re: The Harley State [Re: Paul De]  
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CommuterChris Offline
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Originally Posted By: Paul De
[quote=FlyingFinn]
Going far from the original topic but what you describe is nothing new, each generation letting their freedom flag fly and all...but in the end all become invested in something. Soon enough, there is something to loose and they become the establishment. So, then how does an established company capture the freedom of those who have willingly forgone foot loose and fancy free for a more rooted life. So maybe sell cheap time shares and entice those who would consider owning their own with he freedom to fit that ride in between their gigs, kids and other commitments. OK now I'm depressed!


I think the quote is
If You Are Not a Liberal at 25, You Have No Heart. If You Are Not a Conservative at 35 You Have No Brain

#997063 - 09/16/17 04:57 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: BamaRider]  
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I think you guys are thinking way to global on this. Yes the world is changing. Daily commuter cars are about to be turn upside down. I agree that the average college kid isn't thinking about a harley right now and is thinking about virtual reality. That said, I don't think motorcycles are in any long term trouble. There will be a revolt against the mundane when they wake up one day and realize they are wasting their lives on xbox and crave danger and adrenaline in their lives. Owning a commuter car in a big city may become a rare thing very soon, but that doesn't necessarily apply to recreation. Sports car that you, not a computer, can drive and motorcycles without dumb stuff like dual clutches (Honda are you listening?) will still find there place. I believe the next nostalgia market will be analog.

Harley is double downing killing v rod. Maybe they're right. I say good luck with that, but its hard to say what it might look like. Harley needs to stop thing entry level priced bikes are going to rescue them and start thinking about what that broke 25 year old will want when he gets money. Maybe they have and feel that its a harley, but having more than one line in the water right now couldn't hurt. I think out of Vrod and Buell, The Buell had more promise. They finally let eric go out and get a real motor and killed the whole line a year later. The v rod line really is very close to harley and really could be rebirthed under the harley name if they wanted. I think is they had stayed with buell a few more years they would have started seeing promise if they continued on the mindset of the 1090. Then they would have time to learn how to build their own motor and bring back the America thyme under the Harley network. Now who would trust Harley if they did start a new line that they weren't going to leave them high and dry will no dealer or parts support. I haven't heard if they are killing those two thing with vrod, but they did with Buell.
One other poster did mention the dealer network was part of the problem. I would agree but for different reason. How many guys on the sales floor knew much of anything about the buell and probably looked down on it.

#997075 - 09/16/17 09:54 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: rodantking]  
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Originally Posted By: rodantking

One other poster did mention the dealer network was part of the problem. I would agree but for different reason. How many guys on the sales floor knew much of anything about the buell and probably looked down on it.


The Harley Davidson dealer network is the best in the business. As long as you own or want to buy a HARLEY. Buells and V Rods are not HARLEYS. I went to two dealers in Houston and looked at a Buell for over 1/2 hour. No one even spoke to me. So it isn't just not knowing product, it is not wanting to sell the product. That will KILL any attempt to stray beyond the beaten path with the brand. Harley sells lifestyle. Not too interested in things that interest a typical BMW owner for instance ( probably the two most opposite attitudes ).

#997093 - 09/17/17 12:01 AM Re: The Harley State [Re: BamaRider]  
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I've seen children of friends not being interested in learning to drive until they exited college and entered reality. Now they own cars. As for the car share, that will work for those that can't afford their own or only need one once or twice a month. People like stuff and they want their own stuff. And people that do not own things tend to abuse things they rent.

#997466 - 09/21/17 01:23 AM Re: The Harley State [Re: TEWKS]  
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beemerboy Offline
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Originally Posted By: TEWKS
whistle



Pat


That is freakin' GORGEOUS!


Regards,
Randy
'02 R1150RT
'05 Ducati ST3
'06 K1200S
#997746 - 09/25/17 08:25 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: BamaRider]  
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lkchris Offline
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So, I'm 70 and my parents were 43/40 when I was born and they were youngest children ... I've been around lots of old people.

So maybe the difference between now and the 1950s is that a greater percentage of us haven't been smokers and maybe we actually are pretty healthy and get some exercise and eat well. That maybe wasn't the case in the 1950s ...

... and of course nostalgia for the 1950s and Harley Davidson go hand in hand.

As an aging Baby Boomer it's clear to me the trend is more and more away from nostalgia, and the next generations don't care much about me/us. They might be a bit more do-gooders too, i.e. maybe less interested in any bad boy image. No cigarette packs rolled up in t-shirt sleeves for them. Fewer beer bellies, too.

Yeah, I think HD is in trouble.

They've been an embarrassment to American engineering since the '60s in any event.



PS: owning/riding a motorcycle makes no one an expert on "freedom." That's got nothing to do with the discussion nor with motorcycling.

Last edited by lkchris; 09/25/17 08:28 PM.

Kent Christensen
Albuquerque
'12 R1200RT, '02 R1100S, '84 R80G/S
#997768 - 09/25/17 11:46 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: lkchris]  
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OoPEZoO Offline
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I had to stop in the local HD dealership this afternoon to pick up some new exhaust gaskets for my Buell. This stopped me in my tracks....the new Fat Bob



I think they did a really awesome job designing it. I love it and think it looks even better in person. Only problem I had with it is I hate the feet out in front cruiser ergos. That and the $19k+ price tag.....on something that is basically just a motor, seat, and tires. On the bright side, I was immediately offered a test ride just by just eyeballing it for a few seconds. I would have taken them up on it if I wasn't dressed in business casual. I got looked at kinda weird when I mentioned I didn't have my gear with me for a test ride.


-Keith (Yup, thats me...and my rubber chicken)

Making the world a better place, one rubber chicken at a time!

'98 Buell S1 Lightning
'06 R1200GS
'86 Honda CB125
'00 R1100RT (parting out, PM me)
#997778 - 09/26/17 02:18 AM Re: The Harley State [Re: OoPEZoO]  
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Dennis Andress Offline
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Nice eye candy. Fat tires and 653 lbs are not encouraging.

#997779 - 09/26/17 04:32 AM Re: The Harley State [Re: Dennis Andress]  
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Marty Hill Offline
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I remember the thrill of going from a 725lb Heritage Classic to a 550lb 12GS. What a difference!


Marty
49 states/32 countries/3 continents

700GS/white...old age moto



WWMHD...ride till you can't

Semper Paratus
#997793 - 09/26/17 11:42 AM Re: The Harley State [Re: Dennis Andress]  
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OoPEZoO Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dennis Andress
Nice eye candy. Fat tires and 653 lbs are not encouraging.


BTW...thats dry weight...LOL. Ready to ride its 676

And I agree.....I mentioned it to Danielle last night and showed her the same pic I posted here. She liked the look of it and then shrugged her shoulders and said "You'd have to sell your GS, do what you want". I laughed and said "Not a chance".

I've toyed with the idea of picking up an early V-rod for years, but I could never bring myself to pull the trigger.


-Keith (Yup, thats me...and my rubber chicken)

Making the world a better place, one rubber chicken at a time!

'98 Buell S1 Lightning
'06 R1200GS
'86 Honda CB125
'00 R1100RT (parting out, PM me)
#997828 - 09/26/17 05:29 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: OoPEZoO]  
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Lone_RT_rider Offline
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Originally Posted By: OoPEZoO
Only problem I had with it is I hate the feet out in front cruiser ergos. That and the $19k+ price tag.....on something that is basically just a motor, seat, and tires. ......I got looked at kinda weird when I mentioned I didn't have my gear with me for a test ride.


It's starts at $16,999*. You must have been looking at one with the 114 motor instead of the 107. And, you should see the looks I get when I ride one the other twins in my High-Viz Olympia mesh jacket. wink



No, I have not ridden this one yet. Soon though. The rake trail and wheelbase are less than the other softtails, but still a bit more than the RT.

Fat Bob specs: RT specs:
RAKE (STEERING HEAD) (DEG) 28 RAKE: 26.2
TRAIL 5.2 in. TRAIL: 4.5 inches
WHEELBASE 63.6 in. WHEELBASE 58.4 inches


Last edited by Lone_RT_rider; 09/26/17 05:39 PM. Reason: Insert yellow jacket pic.

If my calculations are correct, when this baby hits 88 miles per hour... you're gonna see some serious stuff...
#997833 - 09/26/17 06:09 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: BamaRider]  
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OoPEZoO Offline
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Yup....it was the 114 I was looking at. I didn't bother to look if it had any other goodies tacked on to it as well. I just glanced down, saw the $19xxx, and laughed.


-Keith (Yup, thats me...and my rubber chicken)

Making the world a better place, one rubber chicken at a time!

'98 Buell S1 Lightning
'06 R1200GS
'86 Honda CB125
'00 R1100RT (parting out, PM me)
#997880 - 09/27/17 05:55 AM Re: The Harley State [Re: Marty Hill]  
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roadscholar Offline
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Originally Posted By: Marty Hill
I remember the thrill of going from a 725lb Heritage Classic to a 550lb 12GS. What a difference!


That's nothing, wait'll you go from 550lb GS to a 280lb WR250 : )


Bill

I didn't just ride in on a Buell.

MOA 80884
RA

R1200GS Adv, KTM 950 Adv, F800GS, Husky Terra 650
#997885 - 09/27/17 10:24 AM Re: The Harley State [Re: BamaRider]  
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CommuterChris Offline
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CommuterChris  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 683
Dallas, Georgia
V Twin cruisers all seem to have weight problems, damn if the HD forum people don't bend over backwards defending the heavy weights as making them better in strong winds and for touring.

Harley is making progress, the new Heritage which has nearly identical dimensions to the Road King weighs a hundred pounds less. As for the Fat Bob, I agree it is over priced as I compare its style to the R9T I rode previously. I thought the R9T was over priced

Last edited by CommuterChris; 09/27/17 10:24 AM.
#998081 - 09/30/17 05:40 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: BamaRider]  
Joined: Sep 2004
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Bill_Walker Offline
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Bill_Walker  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 4,437
San Marcos, CA USA
H-D is indeed working hard to get sales. They've set up a number of "Two-Day Demo Tours" of the new 2018 models through Eagle Rider. Oddly, though, they're not free and not even all that cheap: $298/person riding two-up, or $495 for a solo (and only solo is offered for the Seattle tour).

Harley-Davidson Demo Tours


"Dry-Town" Crew, San Diego
'15 R1200RT
'12 Kawasaki KLX250S
'04 R1150RT (gone)
'02 Suzuki V-Strom (gone)
#998115 - 10/01/17 02:12 AM Re: The Harley State [Re: roadscholar]  
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 9,506
Marty Hill Offline
The Energiser Bunny
Marty Hill  Offline
The Energiser Bunny
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 9,506
Atlanta, Ga.
Originally Posted by roadscholar
Originally Posted by Marty Hill
I remember the thrill of going from a 725lb Heritage Classic to a 550lb 12GS. What a difference!


That's nothing, wait'll you go from 550lb GS to a 280lb WR250 : )


Bill, that will never happen. I have close to zero off road skill.

Last edited by Marty Hill; 10/01/17 02:13 AM.

Marty
49 states/32 countries/3 continents

700GS/white...old age moto



WWMHD...ride till you can't

Semper Paratus
#998180 - 10/01/17 11:17 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: Marty Hill]  
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,035
roadscholar Offline
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roadscholar  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,035
N. Fla.
Originally Posted by Marty Hill
Originally Posted by roadscholar
Originally Posted by Marty Hill
I remember the thrill of going from a 725lb Heritage Classic to a 550lb 12GS. What a difference!


That's nothing, wait'll you go from 550lb GS to a 280lb WR250 : )


Bill, that will never happen. I have close to zero off road skill.


No need Marty, with a few adjustments (seat and windshield) they make surprisingly good streetbikes for their size.


Bill

I didn't just ride in on a Buell.

MOA 80884
RA

R1200GS Adv, KTM 950 Adv, F800GS, Husky Terra 650
#998187 - 10/02/17 01:42 AM Re: The Harley State [Re: roadscholar]  
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 6,778
TEWKS Offline
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TEWKS  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 6,778
Tewksbury, MA.
Originally Posted by roadscholar
Originally Posted by Marty Hill
Originally Posted by roadscholar
Originally Posted by Marty Hill
I remember the thrill of going from a 725lb Heritage Classic to a 550lb 12GS. What a difference!


That's nothing, wait'll you go from 550lb GS to a 280lb WR250 : )


Bill, that will never happen. I have close to zero off road skill.


No need Marty, with a few adjustments (seat and windshield) they make surprisingly good streetbikes for their size.


Yes 94 MPH on Colorado 149 two summers ago. ;-) Ok ok, it was on a downhill with a tailwind but hey, the dude in the F150 Raptor trying to push me couldn't keep up! :-))

Pat


"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do succeed" Curly Howard
#998195 - 10/02/17 02:34 AM Re: The Harley State [Re: BamaRider]  
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,035
roadscholar Offline
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roadscholar  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,035
N. Fla.
The little bugger almost negates the need for a 650, I run my 250X (slightly longer gearing) 80-85 regularly, and at Colorado altitudes it gets around 80mpg.


Bill

I didn't just ride in on a Buell.

MOA 80884
RA

R1200GS Adv, KTM 950 Adv, F800GS, Husky Terra 650
#998390 - 10/04/17 11:26 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: JohnH VA]  
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,317
Fubar Offline
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Fubar  Offline
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Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,317
Sarasota, FL
Originally Posted by JohnH VA
Originally Posted by Dennis Andress
Originally Posted by Lone_RT_rider
Originally Posted by Bud
I was talking with my son this morning about this issue. He pointed out that many younger people would rather car share than own one.


I think we finally have a generation that cares less about it's personal freedom than the previous one. That, is sad....

Shawn


Shawn, I think you hit nail on the head.


Doesn't seem sad to me but admirably sensible -- owning and maintaining a car is their personal choice based on need, where they live and if/how they commute. Some don't particularly like driving and there's less peer pressure to own cool wheels compared to previous generations.

Some kids can't wait to drive; some kids don't care much. I don't think that defines or reflects a generational care about personal freedom.

Considering the poor level of skill demonstrated on the roads by the vast majority of cage drivers, I've got no problem if they'd rather not operate a vehicle. Keeps ride shares like Uber in business. It's amazing how many millenials I see using skateboards to commute. Since they seem to be more urban-centered than suburban, their commute is short and that is a viable option.

Why they're not on motorcycles, I have no idea but I'm not surprised they aren't buying HD: they aren't nearly old enough or rich enough (my car costs less than most HD's). Or interested in sunny Sunday morning rides for brunch with the rest of their "motorcycle club".

It wouldn't bother me an iota if H-D went belly up. Any bike that struggles to keep up with my Prius leaving red lights has serious issues.


Silver '09 R1200RT (the Voot cruiser)
Go BLUE!
bibere artis cervisia

Mark is currently on the road to Castle Anthrax. Please leave your message after the beep.
#998430 - 10/05/17 02:54 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: Fubar]  
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 683
CommuterChris Offline
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CommuterChris  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 683
Dallas, Georgia
Originally Posted by Fubar
[quote=JohnH VA]

It wouldn't bother me an iota if H-D went belly up. Any bike that struggles to keep up with my Prius leaving red lights has serious issues.



don't think they have made a bike that has that issue for decades.

on a side note, how are dealers doing with their K1600Bs? seems in some areas they aren't flying out of stores

Last edited by CommuterChris; 10/05/17 03:00 PM.
#998432 - 10/05/17 03:16 PM Re: The Harley State [Re: CommuterChris]  
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,722
realshelby Offline
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realshelby  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,722
Houston, Tx
Originally Posted by CommuterChris


on a side note, how are dealers doing with their K1600Bs? seems in some areas they aren't flying out of stores


I cannot say how they are selling overall, but I have gotten a surprising number of inquiries from new owners of the "Baggers" wanting a windshield. At least half of them are/were Harley owners. That is saying something.

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