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Shift Assist question


bmwdavid

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I have a 2016 R1200RT with about 150 miles on it. I tried shifting without the clutch and had some trouble. I first tried upshifting without any throttle and it wouldn't upshift from any gear. I then tried upshifting while accelerating and it upshifted but wasn't very smooth required quite a bit of pressure on the shift lever. Tried downshifting and did it after closing the throttle and it wasn't the smoothest either. I had a 2014 and don't remember it being like this.I had the bike in recently f

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on the upshift you are suppose to be accelerating. It is a little easier to do it from 2nd and up. Get going in 2nd, start accelerating pretty hard then upshift while still accelerating and without clutch. I don't use it on the downshift.........so check your manual before you do what I suggest next...but on down shift I believe it is supposed to be throttle closed

 

I don't quick shift out of 1st as it kicks in traction control and hesitates. If I turn off traction control and do it 1st to 2nd it raises the front wheel momentarily and that scares the poot out of me on a this bike. I leave that for my Penton.

 

 

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Be on the throttle to upshift. Close throttle completely when downshifting. It's all in your owner's manual. That said, I generally use GSAP for upshifts from 3rd gear onwards. Similarly, when downshifting, I use it from 6th, down to about 4th, or 3rd. Also, you have to completely move your toe off the gear shift lever between shifts.

Edited by marcopolo
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2 things:

You only have 150 miles on the bike! That is unbelievable. I would do 150 miles the day I picked the bike up. For me any given trip needs to be around that distance.

 

Anyhow, to your issue. The quick shifter is really there to aid with hard acceleration and likewise, deceleration. If you are just mamby pambying around, using the quick shifter will result in difficult and uncomfortable gear changes. The conventional method of using clutch and throttle balance is for that style of gear change. When you give it some welly, then use the quick shifter and feed back how it works. The downshift should be done with a fully closed throttle.

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I bought a used 2016 that i've had 6 weeks and put a little over 2k on so i have experimented with the shift-assist a little.

 

For upshifting i find it smoothest accelerating/pulling from 3-4-5-6 with the RPM above 3,000, it's kind of fun on an entrance ramp.

 

For downshifting, i usually do that on the exit ramp coming off the highway i close the throttle and tap it down 6-5-4-3-2. i always use the clutch going from 1-2 and 2-1.

 

Compared to my 2004 RT the 2016 clutch is so smooth and light i enjoy using it. I'm still experimenting on finding the sweet-spot for using the clutch and limiting the clunk, i have taken it as a personal challenge.

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SAP definitely works better between gears 2 through 6 for upshifts. I have not been all that enamored the SAP downshifts and tend to avoid it, but it seems it is behaving better on downshifts now that I have used it more (adaptive?). I would never trust it to do downshifts when riding frisky. I also never use this feature for 1>2 or 2>1 shifts as it is terrible between those gears both ways...I think they should call this feature simply Shift Assist and skip the Pro as the system is far from being able to execute pro level shifts.

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Help me out here. I have tried the above technique on my 2016 RTW (up shift while accelerating), but the bike LURCHES with each attempt. No smoothness here. So I go back to old school clutch shifting.

Yes, I know the rule--don't touch that shifter until it's time to shift. No more "pre-load and go."

 

Is there some kind of adjustment that can be done?

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Hi BeemerBerg. If it is as bad as you say, you should take it bake to your dealer and see if there is a software revision. The SAP should be sweeter than a clutched change.

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I get the lurches if i shift too early in the rev range or if i back off of the wrist-twist even a little.

 

I experimented this morning on my commute while merging on the highway, from 3rd gear i let the rpm's continue to build to between 4 and 5k and then nicked the shift level up. I think of it as lazy shifting, i'm not in a hurry i just want to get it into 6th and cruise.

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I had the dealer/service guys look at my '14 on the first service. They said they did some adjustments... who really knows, but it did seem to work better and smoother.

 

Rode day before yesterday and it was like "buttah" on the 3-4, and 4-5, 5-6 upshifts but the others were still a bit clunky. Down shifts always feel less than smooth to me... but then, I am old-school. I like the clutch. they make things so convenient... being on the lever and all... ;)... ever ride an old Harley with the foot-clutch and the shift lever beside the tank...?

 

Tell you what I DO like though... is the Hill-Assist. Living in the mountains... you can quickly learn to love that feature.

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...Tell you what I DO like though... is the Hill-Assist. Living in the mountains... you can quickly learn to love that feature.

 

:thumbsup:

 

But back to the question at hand. I found under light to moderate acceleration, SAP seems to work best. Haven't tried a WFO upshift yet.

 

I mostly used SAP to upshift with the SO on back to avoid helmet clunking...never use SAP to downshift with her onboard as I am can be smother than SAP.

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Be on the throttle to upshift. Close throttle completely when downshifting. It's all in your owner's manual. That said, I generally use GSAP for upshifts from 3rd gear onwards. Similarly, when downshifting, I use it from 6th, down to about 4th, or 3rd. Also, you have to completely move your toe off the gear shift lever between shifts.

Actually you do not need to close the throttle at all when downshifting, just keep it constant. From the Owner's Manual:-

 

"Your vehicle is equipped with a shift assistant, a system originally developed for racing and now adapted for the touring sector. It permits upshifts and downshifts without declutching or closing the throttle in virtually all load and rpm ranges."

 

and

 

"When shifting gears with the shift assistant, the rider has to keep load state (throttle twistgrip position) constant before and during the gearshift. A change in the position of the throttle twistgrip during a gearshift can cause the function to abort and/or lead to a missed shift.".

 

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Be on the throttle to upshift. Close throttle completely when downshifting. It's all in your owner's manual. That said, I generally use GSAP for upshifts from 3rd gear onwards. Similarly, when downshifting, I use it from 6th, down to about 4th, or 3rd. Also, you have to completely move your toe off the gear shift lever between shifts.

Actually you do not need to close the throttle at all when downshifting, just keep it constant. From the Owner's Manual:-

 

"Your vehicle is equipped with a shift assistant, a system originally developed for racing and now adapted for the touring sector. It permits upshifts and downshifts without declutching or closing the throttle in virtually all load and rpm ranges."

 

and

 

"When shifting gears with the shift assistant, the rider has to keep load state (throttle twistgrip position) constant before and during the gearshift. A change in the position of the throttle twistgrip during a gearshift can cause the function to abort and/or lead to a missed shift.".

 

That's interesting. I assume that's what it says in the manual for your 2015 RT? That's not what it says in the manual for my 2015 GSA. Here are two excerpts:

 

"Throttle does not have to be closed when changing gear under acceleration"; and

 

" During deceleration and downshifts (throttle plate closed) the system blips the throttle to obtain the correct engine speed."

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Well, in my manual (page 117) it discusses the use of SAP

It says 70-80% of all gearshifts can be done without using the clutch

 

For upshifts it says:

It is NOT necessary to close the throttle when shifting under acceleration.

 

For downshifts it says:

When braking and downshifting (THROTTLE VALVE CLOSED), engine speed is adjusted by blipping the throttle.

 

It sites and advantage of using SAP that there will be less relative movement between rider and pillion due to the quicker shifts.

 

and finally it says that shift time is shorter than with clutch actuation.

 

So for upshifts, you are accelerating, for downshifts you have the throttle closed.

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First off, yes I have read the manual. But my experience with GSAP is pretty much what others have had.

 

I rode my bike for the first month without ever even trying it. Coming off a fat heavy cruiser, I just didn't think I would use it. After reading the manual, I decided to try the upshifts. I did it by hitting the throttle hard. I probably was shifting at around 6-7k the first few times. I've pushed the bike nearly to red line after that. That's when I realized how much of a rocket this bike can be.

 

Since then, I've played with it quite a bit. Like everyone else, my 1-2 shift is clunky. The only way I've found to make that work is if I really short shift. I was used to that on my cruiser and it does work on the RT. But I don't normally short shift that much. What I find typically smoothest is continuing 2+ shifts with GSAP. I am probably still short shifting compared to what many on here would think. But I can keep it smooth that way.

 

Downshifts I've noticed a few quirks. Like most, I only go down to 3rd with GSAP. After that, I can do it smoother myself. And I do have the latest firmware updates. But on the RT, I seldom am coming to a stop in a manner that I would be using engine braking after 3rd gear anyway. I'm fairly close to coming to a stop and just finish off with the brakes.

 

Overall, I am happy with my 2015 GSAP. But I didn't drive my wife's 2017 with GSAP. The tranny updates make hers operate smoother than mine. I think I could get used to that one even easier.

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Be on the throttle to upshift. Close throttle completely when downshifting. It's all in your owner's manual. That said, I generally use GSAP for upshifts from 3rd gear onwards. Similarly, when downshifting, I use it from 6th, down to about 4th, or 3rd. Also, you have to completely move your toe off the gear shift lever between shifts.

Actually you do not need to close the throttle at all when downshifting, just keep it constant. From the Owner's Manual:-

 

"Your vehicle is equipped with a shift assistant, a system originally developed for racing and now adapted for the touring sector. It permits upshifts and downshifts without declutching or closing the throttle in virtually all load and rpm ranges."

 

and

 

"When shifting gears with the shift assistant, the rider has to keep load state (throttle twistgrip position) constant before and during the gearshift. A change in the position of the throttle twistgrip during a gearshift can cause the function to abort and/or lead to a missed shift.".

 

That's interesting. I assume that's what it says in the manual for your 2015 RT? That's not what it says in the manual for my 2015 GSA. Here are two excerpts:

 

"Throttle does not have to be closed when changing gear under acceleration"; and

 

" During deceleration and downshifts (throttle plate closed) the system blips the throttle to obtain the correct engine speed."

 

First, you are correct in assuming that is what my 2015 RT manual said, word for word. I think that it also has the same wording you quoted from your 2015 GSA manual - from my recollection of reading it yesterday (too lazy to dig it out again to check). I suspect your manual may also have the bits of text I quoted?

 

But here is the thing, the wording you quoted does not contradict the wording I quoted (bear with me I review contracts for a living!). Your first quoted text refers to upshifts which my original posting did not cover. Your second quote clearly describes what the bike does when the throttle plate is closed without ever actually saying that the throttle plate should be closed.

 

I have been using my bike for over 16,000 miles and never had an issues downshifting without closing the throttle. Although I have never used the GAP (up or down) in the lower three gears.

 

Just my experiences and reading of the manual - YMMV!

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However the manual does contradict itself because on page 99 of the 2014 manual it states:

Advantages

70 – 80 % of all gearshifts on a trip can be done without using the clutch.

Less relative movement between rider and passenger because the shift pauses are shorter.

It is not necessary to close the throttle valve when shifting under acceleration.

When braking and downshifting (throttle valve closed), engine speed is adjusted by blipping the throttle.

Shift time is shorter than a gearshift with clutch actuation.

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I find GSAP upshifts most useful when passing cars on a two-lane road. Just hold the throttle open and move the shifter quickly, and it's quite smooth, at least from third gear up. Downshifting with the throttle closed and the automatic throttle blips is pretty sweet, and I sometimes use it when coming to a stop. However, I've decided that when riding in a sporting fashion, I prefer to use the clutch and match revs. I've had the rear step out on me a couple of times on a corner entry when a downshift should have resulted in the engine being in the upper rev ranges.

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Shift assist is more of a novelty to me. Kind of like a DCT-lite. And the lever pull for upshifts is kind of hard. But I do use it occasionally for deceleration when I'm feeling too lazy to do clean rpm-matched downshifts.

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However the manual does contradict itself because on page 99 of the 2014 manual it states:

...

 

When braking and downshifting (throttle valve closed), engine speed is adjusted by blipping the throttle.

Shift time is shorter than a gearshift with clutch actuation.

I read this as a description of how the system works IF the throttle value is closed. How it works when the throttle value is not closed is not described, but it works just fine!! Perhaps because the engine revs increase automatically (without the need for the system to blip the throttle) as the bike goes into neutral between the gears?

Edited by TJRL
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Hi TJRL, I think you will find that is not an 'if' but a 'when'. So, changing down using the SAP in a condition other than fully closed it responds often in a far than perfect way. However, WHEN it is closed fully it downshifts and rev matches beautifully.

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Morning bmw david

 

From BMW--

 

"Notes:

â—¾No assist for gearshifts is provided under the following conditions:â—¾ Shifting with the clutch disengaged

â—¾Up shifts with the throttle closed (coasting) or when decelerating

â—¾The shift lever is not in its neutral position before starting a shift

â—¾The system supports downshifts with an open throttle, but the shift quality is influenced by sudden or jerky throttle-on and throttle-off changes in lower gears

â—¾Shifts performed without disengaging the clutch in low gears at high engine RPM's may be accompanied by substantial torque reaction during power transitions. BMW Motorrad recommends that the clutch is used to perform shifts under these operating conditions. Riders should avoid using the Gear Shift Assistant Pro at engine RPM's approaching the engine's rev limit.

 

â—¾To ensure safety, cruise control is automatically deactivated during gear changes with the Gear Shift Assistant Pro"

 

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I've never found dowmshifts using GSAP to be very smooth when the throttle was open, BMW notes notwithstanding.

 

But there is your answer. You shouldn't be doing it, so you can't blame SAP for it.

 

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I've never found dowmshifts using GSAP to be very smooth when the throttle was open, BMW notes notwithstanding.

 

But there is your answer. You shouldn't be doing it, so you can't blame SAP for it.

 

I am not sure the above quotes for the BMW manual support the statement that "You shouldn't be doing it", if the "doing it" refers to downshifting with the throttle open. Unless of course the "doing it " referred to downshifting with the throttle open and changing the amount the throttle was open during the shifting operation.

 

I have found downshifts using the GSAP with the throttle open (in a constant position) to be fine and smooth, just as the Mothership said it would be "The system supports downshifts with an open throttle, but the shift quality is influenced by sudden or jerky throttle-on and throttle-off changes in lower gears". No sudden or jerky throttle-on or throttle-off changes and the shift quality is good.

 

YMMV!

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I've tried downshifting, but never noticed the blip of the throttle. Down shifting takes a little more concetrtatin. I really like the upshifting, but it was rough until a couple thousand miles. Now it's like butter.

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I've never found dowmshifts using GSAP to be very smooth when the throttle was open, BMW notes notwithstanding.

 

But there is your answer. You shouldn't be doing it, so you can't blame SAP for it.

 

You misunderstood. The only time I kept the throttle open was when I first got the bike (two years ago). I discovered very quickly that downshifting works much better with the throttle fully closed. And, I wasn't blaming GSAP for anything, as I do not downshift with the throttle open. The BMW notes I was referring to were posted by someone else. Those notes suggested -- some might say said explicitly -- that you could downshift with the throttle open.

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My 2014 had a service bulletin for the shift assist and I don't think the 2016 has anything available. I know for sure the 14 was way smoother than my 16 and I will ask the dealer when it goes in for the first service.

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