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#999890 - 10/30/17 05:10 AM what else uses counter steering?  
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elkroeger Offline
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Woke up this morning having sortof a weird dream. That left me thinking about countersteering. In particular, what else functions like that? Couple of things came to mind. A boat perhaps? Steering is accomplished partly by the lean of the boat when up on plane. Steering is initiated by changing the direction of the thrust to the same side as the intended turn. But is that really countersteering? Maybe you're just moving the stern to one side. This would probably be similar for any wheeled vehicle with rear steering (think about pushing a lawnmower around a corner).

Maybe we need to define countersteering properly first? Really what you're doing is creating an asymmetrical contact patch at the tire, so you're effectively riding on a cone. And this is done by steering slightly in the "wrong" direction, which leans the bike, and changes the contact patch. Maybe there's a better definition.

Some other candidates that might be steered in an unusual manner: Rotary floor sanders/polishers? Oddly enough, you can sortof "steer" the belt on a belt sander by manipulating the angle, and thus, the contact patch of the drums. Does that count? How about balls? Bowling balls, soccer balls, baseballs? Seems like most balls are steered by initiating a spin.

What else is steered in an odd manner? Airplanes? Parachutes? Skis? Unicycles? Of course, bicycles are countersteered, they're the same thing as motorbikes in this regard. Seems like boats, planes, skis, ice skates, rollerblades, and walking all can, or do incorporate leaning. And leaning is initiated by "steering" slightly in the wrong direction. For walking and the like - if you step right, you lean left and go left (hopefully in a controlled manner), but the contact patch at your foot doesn't behave like a tire....

Maybe I'm nuts. I dunno.


Last edited by elkroeger; 10/30/17 05:12 AM.

I'm a man, and I can change, if I have to, I guess.

Eric
#999895 - 10/30/17 11:47 AM Re: what else uses counter steering? [Re: elkroeger]  
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Patallaire Offline
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When I was racing cars, I took a course with Mark Donahue, he advocated a slight counter steer before entering and after exiting a corner. It helped to set/reset the shocks and maintain balance of the car. It was subtle, it seemed to work. By the way, you asked two questions, one was on counter steering, the other is whether you are nuts! I think one can be answered the other may be beyond the scope of this board!! I dunno!


Pat Allaire
99RT Tundra Green
www.AllaireFinancial.Com
Allaire Financial Strategies
Buffalo, NY
#999913 - 10/30/17 04:37 PM Re: what else uses counter steering? [Re: elkroeger]  
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Redman Offline
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How about think of this.....

If you were running, jogging, or maybe even walking, and wanted to turn, say, left. How do you do that?
Do you take shorter steps on the left (inside)...? Do you take longer steps on the right (outside)....? Maybe that might work when walking, but if running, what do you do to start getting upper body to lean....?
I think you probably bend your knee more on the left, so you start to fall over toward the left, and maybe you step out a little further to the right with your right leg/foot... so that, in many ways, is sort of like countersteering.

So, what else uses countersteering? You do, when walking, running.
But you learned to walk-run, when you were, what? One year old, and did not really know-study-understand what you were doing, you somehow just learned it by trial and error.
Then when learned to ride a bike, you learned to countersterr, weither you understood that is what you were doing or not.

.


'02 R1150RT, '82 GS1100GK, '86 VT500
#999917 - 10/30/17 05:46 PM Re: what else uses counter steering? [Re: elkroeger]  
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Joe Frickin' Friday Offline
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Originally Posted by elkroeger
Maybe we need to define countersteering properly first?


Basically, initiating a turn by steering in the opposite direction of how one steers during the turn. This is a requirement on any single-track vehicle (bicycle, unicycle). If you're on skates or skis and you want to initiate a turn, you can unload the leg on the inside of the turn as Redman describes so that you start leaning to the inside. That can take time, though. If you want to initiate the turn more rapidly, you can move your skis/skates toward the outside of the turn first by countersteering; that kicks your support out from under you and establishes the lean more quickly so you can start your actual turn sooner. Watch hockey players, figure skaters, and downhill skiers, and I'm pretty sure you'll catch them countersteering to make snappy maneuvers happen.

Originally Posted by elkroeger
A boat perhaps? Steering is accomplished partly by the lean of the boat when up on plane. Steering is initiated by changing the direction of the thrust to the same side as the intended turn. But is that really countersteering? Maybe you're just moving the stern to one side.


No countersteer there. You want to turn to port, you turn the steering wheel to the left (or push the tiller to starboard), and leave it there. The lean of the hull gets established as soon as the boat starts to skid (because the rudder/engine is pushing the stern out to starboard).

Originally Posted by elkroeger
Airplanes?


These have something in common with singletrack vehicles in that they must lean to turn. You can do this in most planes by using the ailerons to induce a roll; once you’ve rolled to a satisfactory bank angle, you pull back on the stick a smidge to provide enough lift to both maintain altitude and nudge the aircraft around a curved path.

The interesting thing is that on some planes you don’t absolutely have to use ailerons to turn. Many (most?) aircraft are built with a positive dihedral angle, i.e. the tip of each wing is higher than the root (some wings also include polyhedral, which kinks the wing at mid-span so the wingtip is even higher yet). This means you can use the rudder all by itself to start a turn, just like a boat. Want to turn left? Move rudder to left. Tail skids out to right, and now the underside of the right wing is catching wind, and the upper surface of the left wing is catching wind. Plane rolls left, and presto, now you’re turning left. No countersteer, though. grin I used to have a radio-controlled glider that didn’t have ailerons, requiring that turns be done using the rudder. This reduced the weight of the aircraft, and made for much simpler wing construction.

#1000112 - 11/02/17 05:36 PM Re: what else uses counter steering? [Re: Joe Frickin' Friday]  
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Lone_RT_rider Offline
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Originally Posted by Joe Frickin' Friday
Originally Posted by elkroeger
A boat perhaps? Steering is accomplished partly by the lean of the boat when up on plane. Steering is initiated by changing the direction of the thrust to the same side as the intended turn. But is that really countersteering? Maybe you're just moving the stern to one side.


No countersteer there. You want to turn to port, you turn the steering wheel to the left (or push the tiller to starboard), and leave it there. The lean of the hull gets established as soon as the boat starts to skid (because the rudder/engine is pushing the stern out to starboard).


What about a dual prop boat, and the docking procedures that are used by just powering a single engine to move the boat either right or left?


If my calculations are correct, when this baby hits 88 miles per hour... you're gonna see some serious stuff...
#1000119 - 11/02/17 08:43 PM Re: what else uses counter steering? [Re: Lone_RT_rider]  
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Joe Frickin' Friday Offline
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Originally Posted by Lone_RT_rider
What about a dual prop boat, and the docking procedures that are used by just powering a single engine to move the boat either right or left?


Not sure what you'd call that, but if you want to safely develop your twin-engine maneuvering skills, log some time on the simulator before you go out on the water. grin

#1000121 - 11/02/17 08:46 PM Re: what else uses counter steering? [Re: Joe Frickin' Friday]  
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Lone_RT_rider Offline
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Originally Posted by Joe Frickin' Friday
Originally Posted by Lone_RT_rider
What about a dual prop boat, and the docking procedures that are used by just powering a single engine to move the boat either right or left?


Not sure what you'd call that, but if you want to safely develop your twin-engine maneuvering skills, log some time on the simulator before you go out on the water. grin


Ummmmm..... huh?

[Linked Image]


If my calculations are correct, when this baby hits 88 miles per hour... you're gonna see some serious stuff...
#1000123 - 11/02/17 08:55 PM Re: what else uses counter steering? [Re: Lone_RT_rider]  
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Joe Frickin' Friday Offline
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Originally Posted by Lone_RT_rider
Originally Posted by Joe Frickin' Friday
Originally Posted by Lone_RT_rider
What about a dual prop boat, and the docking procedures that are used by just powering a single engine to move the boat either right or left?


Not sure what you'd call that, but if you want to safely develop your twin-engine maneuvering skills, log some time on the simulator before you go out on the water. grin


Ummmmm..... huh?

[Linked Image]


You don't remember how you steered the tank?

#1000124 - 11/02/17 08:59 PM Re: what else uses counter steering? [Re: Joe Frickin' Friday]  
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Originally Posted by Joe Frickin' Friday
You don't remember how you steered the tank?


Dude..... Ummmmm... video games were basically before my time. Atari came out when I was VERY into BMX bikes and racing. I opted for the real life experience instead. I've never played "Battlezone".... smile


If my calculations are correct, when this baby hits 88 miles per hour... you're gonna see some serious stuff...

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