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Introduction and O2 Question


roger 04 rt

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roger 04 rt
... At this point there are a couple choices: ...

Or install a Power Commander USBIII with a wideband O2 sensor. In that case the Power Commander will take over closed-loop operation so you can set the value to be anything you like, and you also can tweak the open-loop map if desired. All easily settable by a laptop computer, and you can save and apply various configurations at will making testing very easy. You can even directly read realtime A/F ratio (as read by the wideband sensor), injector duty cycle, rpm, throttle position,. etc. on the laptop, or an external gauge.

 

As for me I ended up with a 14.2:1 closed loop setting (best compromise I could find between throttle response and fuel economy, and even at that it is notably better than the very lean stock setting) and I richened the open-loop mixture a bit in the 'surge range' (<5% throttle position and between 3-4000 rpm.) Everything else stock. This has worked well for me on an 1100RT.

 

I agree with you that the PowerCommander III is one of the good ways to achieve a richer mixture. I have been thinking about going back to 14.0 to 14.2:1 although my economy is good. Something in that range will pretty much insure that the leanest cylinder has some excess fuel.

 

Two things are unclear about the PowerCommander to me:

 

1) When you add a percentage to the fuel, does it know to take injector on-time and off-time into account (matters for small pulse widths)? I guess one could do that manually as values were put in the Open Loop table.

 

2) In addition to Close Loop (and I think it does that on the BMW versions, though not all), does it also create Adaptation Values as it learns about fueling through it's own Closed Loop, since the Motronic will no longer perform that function (since its O2 is disconnected)?

 

Other than those questions, and its price ($495 vs $170 for an LC-1), I think it is one of the better solutions.

Edited by roger 04 rt
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1. The Power Commander sits between the Motronic and the bike, meaning it has its own O2 sensor, connection to TPS, and takes over control of the injectors (the Motronic injector connectors themselves are left disconnected after a PC install.) So in closed loop it becomes the ECU, and in open loop it passes through Motronic commands to the injectors, modifying them at certain throttle position/rpm ranges if and only if you have entered any changes.

 

2. Good question, I do not know if the PC maintains fuel trims. And you are right that only a subset of Power Commander BMW applications provide full closed-loop control. The PCIIUSB 'Wideband Power Commander' series for the oilheads does, but not necessarily others.

 

You can get them for maybe $100 off of list so more like the high $300 range, but yes, not the least expensive solution. But it is effective, supported, and plug-and-play for the less technically inclined so that's some of the things you are paying for I guess.

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roger 04 rt
1. The Power Commander sits between the Motronic and the bike, meaning it has its own O2 sensor, connection to TPS, and takes over control of the injectors (the Motronic injector connectors themselves are left disconnected after a PC install.) So in closed loop it becomes the ECU, and in open loop it passes through Motronic commands to the injectors, modifying them at certain throttle position/rpm ranges if and only if you have entered any changes.

 

2. Good question, I do not know if the PC maintains fuel trims. And you are right that only a subset of Power Commander BMW applications provide full closed-loop control. The PCIIUSB 'Wideband Power Commander' series for the oilheads does, but not necessarily others.

 

You can get them for maybe $100 off of list so more like the high $300 range, but yes, not the least expensive solution. But it is effective, supported, and plug-and-play for the less technically inclined so that's some of the things you are paying for I guess.

 

A slight correction, the stock TPS and at least one of the Injector connectors do connect to the PCIII, perhaps one of the injector connectors is left unattached.

 

That said, I agree that PCIII USB is a more standard, supported, plug and play approach to the challenge of richening the mixture. Unlike the Techlusion, when you program the PowerCommander you have a pretty good idea of how much fuel you're adding and where you're adding it.

 

Edited by roger 04 rt
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1. The Power Commander sits between the Motronic and the bike, meaning it has its own O2 sensor, connection to TPS, and takes over control of the injectors (the Motronic injector connectors themselves are left disconnected after a PC install.) So in closed loop it becomes the ECU, and in open loop it passes through Motronic commands to the injectors, modifying them at certain throttle position/rpm ranges if and only if you have entered any changes.

 

That's incorrect.

 

You have to think of the BMW Power Commander as 2 distinct pieces of hardware. The original PC3 is still there reading the injector duty cycle and then outputting a modified duty cycle based on a percentage in its map. The other part works exactly like the LC-1, it reads the wideband O2 sensor and using the user defined AFR then outputs a signal to the BMW ECM thru the original O2 sensor connector that it is richer or leaner than that value. The BMW ECM still thinks its receiving a narrowband O2 signal.

 

As for injector on-time/off-time, it modifies the duty cycle from the previous injector pulse.

 

You are still able to enter a value into each cell (for example, add 5%) but since the BMW ECM will usually be in closed-loop operation, the value doesn't "stick". I've found that the BMW ECM will compensate for up to +/- 25% change, tested in my driveway. I added 25% to the idle, bike ran rough for a few secs and AFR was very rich and slowly the bike came back to it's 14.0:1 AFR I had set, anything farther out than that and the ECM didn't correct it.

 

The BMW Power Commander doesn't learn anything, btw.

 

There's also a hidden menu that you can add an offset to the closed loop area* of the Power Commander map, I've added 5% on mine. IMHO, the BMW Power Commander is a much better solution than a booster plug since it modifies only the fuel injector output, spoofing the inputs is risky since no one actually knows what the BMW ECM is doing with that info. We can assume, but you know what that means.

 

*The Closed Loop area on the BMW Power Commander map is for show only. The BMWPC doesn't actually know when the system is in closed or open loop, it simply outputs a signal to the BMW ECM O2 line all the time, it's up to the BMW ECM to react to it. Through careful testing, similar to my idle test above, you can see where the BMW ECM reacts or doesn't react to the O2 sensor signal.

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roger 04 rt
... The other part works exactly like the LC-1, it reads the wideband O2 sensor and using the user defined AFR then outputs a signal to the BMW ECM thru the original O2 sensor connector that it is richer or leaner than that value. The BMW ECM still thinks its receiving a narrowband O2 signal.

 

As for injector on-time/off-time, it modifies the duty cycle from the previous injector pulse.

 

You are still able to enter a value into each cell (for example, add 5%) but since the BMW ECM will usually be in closed-loop operation, the value doesn't "stick". I've found that the BMW ECM will compensate for up to +/- 25% change, tested in my driveway. I added 25% to the idle, bike ran rough for a few secs and AFR was very rich and slowly the bike came back to it's 14.0:1 AFR I had set, anything farther out than that and the ECM didn't correct it.

 

The BMW Power Commander doesn't learn anything, btw.

 

There's also a hidden menu that you can add an offset to the closed loop area* of the Power Commander map, I've added 5% on mine. IMHO, the BMW Power Commander is a much better solution than a booster plug since it modifies only the fuel injector output, spoofing the inputs is risky since no one actually knows what the BMW ECM is doing with that info. We can assume, but you know what that means.

 

*The Closed Loop area on the BMW Power Commander map is for show only. The BMWPC doesn't actually know when the system is in closed or open loop, it simply outputs a signal to the BMW ECM O2 line all the time, it's up to the BMW ECM to react to it. Through careful testing, similar to my idle test above, you can see where the BMW ECM reacts or doesn't react to the O2 sensor signal.

 

You've made a lot of interesting comments. I hadn't realized the PCIII sends the signal back into the Motronic. That's not clear from the documentation.

 

And I fully agree that it's a better solution (by far) than a BoosterPlug for richening the mixture. By feeding the Wideband signal into the Motronic, it keeps the Motronic doing all its good things.

 

Based on what you've said, if you attach the Wideband, you can only influence Open Loop fueling in areas where the Motronic doesn't use Closed Loop, near WOT.

 

Although you have to do the power wiring yourself (I bought a small plastic utility box) and you have to harvest the O2 connector from your old Narrowband sensor, the LC-1 seems to do most of what's needed at about half the price. But, I agree that the PCIII is more plug and play.

Edited by roger 04 rt
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You have to think of the BMW Power Commander as 2 distinct pieces of hardware. The original PC3 is still there reading the injector duty cycle and then outputting a modified duty cycle based on a percentage in its map. The other part works exactly like the LC-1, it reads the wideband O2 sensor and using the user defined AFR then outputs a signal to the BMW ECM thru the original O2 sensor connector that it is richer or leaner than that value. The BMW ECM still thinks its receiving a narrowband O2 signal.

No, the PCIIIUSB does not spoof the BMW O2 sensor input (other than to provide voltage cycling to keep the Moronic happy.) Otherwise the WB-PCIII is in total control of closed loop. This information is from multiple conversations with their tech support, including on one occasion the engineer who wrote the firmware.

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roger 04 rt
...

No, the PCIIIUSB does not spoof the BMW O2 sensor input (other than to provide voltage cycling to keep the Moronic happy.)...

 

That's what the Techlusion does. Connects to the O2 sensor input just to keep the Motronic from throwing an error code.

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Yes, and in addition the PCIII provides true closed-loop control rather than removing it. It operates similar to other alpha-n systems in that it looks at TPS and engine speed and determines when closed-loop operation is appropriate. If so it operates as the ECU using the replacement wideband sensor to maintain set A/F ratio and when in open loop it uses the Motronic output as a baseline. The reason the previous poster saw a correction at idle is probably because the thing decided to settle into closed-loop and corrected to the set ratio. To provide cold-start enrichment they use an algorithm based on number of revolutions since start, etc., and allow the Motronic to control during that time (since the PCIII can't know things like engine temp.) They wouldn't go into the details of that with me as I guess they consider it proprietary.

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roger 04 rt
Yes, and in addition the PCIII provides true closed-loop control rather than removing it. It operates similar to other alpha-n systems in that it looks at TPS and engine speed and determines when closed-loop operation is appropriate. If so it operates as the ECU using the replacement wideband sensor to maintain set A/F ratio and when in open loop it uses the Motronic output as a baseline. The reason the previous poster saw a correction at idle is probably because the thing decided to settle into closed-loop and corrected to the set ratio. To provide cold-start enrichment they use an algorithm based on number of revolutions since start, etc., and allow the Motronic to control during that time (since the PCIII can't know things like engine temp.) They wouldn't go into the details of that with me as I guess they consider it proprietary.

 

That all makes sense to me. The PCIII has to get RPM information from the injector pulse rep rate which it can measure. Then measure pulse width and use it as a starting point to add/subtract fuel to.

 

There are three types of start up enrichments that I've read about, two of which I've seen in my measurements:

 

Cranking: A few shots of a lot of extra fuel

After Start: Extra rich for the next 150-200 cycles

Warm-up: From about 13.0 to 14.7 while the engine warms to 55-60C. This takes about 3-5 minutes. So the PCIII probably waits for that amount of time since it doesn't tap into the Oil Temp sensor.

 

Good stuff.

Edited by roger 04 rt
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Warm-up: From about 13.0 to 14.7 while the engine warms to 55-60C. This takes about 3-5 minutes. So the PCIII probably waits for that amount of time since it doesn't tap into the Oil Temp sensor.

Yes, except from watching operation the PC seems to come on-line faster if the engine is already warm so it may be a little more sophisticated than a simple wait, such as the PC may be looking at A/F ratio and thus detect when the Motronic comes off of cold enrichment.

 

I think what they are doing is a Cadillac solution but is also complex and costly, and maybe overkill if all you want is to get rid of the worst of the Motronic lean-fueling issues. But a great option if you want to spend the $$.

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roger 04 rt
Warm-up: From about 13.0 to 14.7 while the engine warms to 55-60C. This takes about 3-5 minutes. So the PCIII probably waits for that amount of time since it doesn't tap into the Oil Temp sensor.

Yes, except from watching operation the PC seems to come on-line faster if the engine is already warm so it may be a little more sophisticated than a simple wait, such as the PC may be looking at A/F ratio and thus detect when the Motronic comes off of cold enrichment.

 

I think what they are doing is a Cadillac solution but is also complex and costly, and maybe overkill if all you want is to get rid of the worst of the Motronic lean-fueling issues. But a great option if you want to spend the $$.

 

That would be a clever and entirely plausible thing for it to do. Here is a possibility:

 

--Wait for the Bosch Wideband Sensor to heat up. It know when this occurs since the PCIII controls the heater.

 

--Then wait for a number of cycles for the AFR to stabilize. Sometimes the LC-1 reports a high AFR just after warm-start.

 

--Then watch until AFR crosses up to 14.4:1 (?? a guess).

 

--Then start its Closed Loop or whatever routines it runs.

 

I still see it as one of the better ways to get the job done. At least you have a good idea how much fuel it is adding and when, unlike some other approaches.

 

Edited by roger 04 rt
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I use the PC in multiple configurations and on numerous bikes on a daily basis. Talked to and met many of the people at Dynojet and have a $250,000 dyno room to play in whenever I need to. The BMW PC works exactly as I described. I have disconnect the fuel injectors and TPS input and left only the Wideband sensor and BMW O2 sensor connectors (9v battery for power) attached the unit "will" spoof the user defined AFR. I have done the reverse and the BMW PC works exactly as an ordinary PC3. That's all I will say on this subject, I've been following this thread and thought I would throw in a correction, nevermind then.

 

Steve

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roger 04 rt
I use the PC in multiple configurations and on numerous bikes on a daily basis. Talked to and met many of the people at Dynojet and have a $250,000 dyno room to play in whenever I need to. The BMW PC works exactly as I described. I have disconnect the fuel injectors and TPS input and left only the Wideband sensor and BMW O2 sensor connectors (9v battery for power) attached the unit "will" spoof the user defined AFR. I have done the reverse and the BMW PC works exactly as an ordinary PC3. That's all I will say on this subject, I've been following this thread and thought I would throw in a correction, nevermind then.

 

Steve

 

I think your additions to this thread have been good. Part of the problem with the Motronic, PCIII, Techlusion and many other products is that there is little documentation on how they work. That has left it to the user to conduct experiments to figure out what is what.

 

I'm just a bike rider/owner that likes to know how things work and has the time to experiment.

 

RB

Edited by roger 04 rt
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Yes, when it was finally explained to me how it works from someone who knows (took a while to get there) I found myself asking but... but... if it wants to be the primary ECU 'how do it know' how to handle out-of-range engine temp conditions such as cold start? That's when they explained the above but weren't too forthcoming on the details, I think purposefully, even though I was being a minor PITA in trying to get through to engineering. Maybe they thought I worked for the competition and I should have just explained I was a BMW geek... then they would have understood. :grin:

 

 

Edit: Steve, I am only detailing what I was told on multiple occasions and how it seems to work from my own experimentation. If your experiences have been different I have no explanation. We are all just discussing here and disagreement is not meant as an offense.

 

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And a question (and I do hope you won't bow out of the thread)... if closed-loop operation does work as you describe with the PCIII, what would be the functional difference either way? Meaning, from your description of operation the operator sets the desired closed-loop value and when the Motronic decides closed-loop is appropriate it is spoofed into providing that ratio. In what I was told the PC decides, but does it really matter? The objective is to allow the user to set open and closed loop fueling values and that is what occurs regardless of which device decides when to enter closed-loop. As an aside, what I find confusing is that even if either the individuals I spoke to didn't understand (which I would find surprising given who I spoke to, but I'll leave it at that) or I myself misunderstood, where did the description of cold start operation come from? If the Motronic is in control then there would be no need for the cold start functionality at all and it seems a little complex for someone to have just made up. Just a rhetorical question since there's no way either of us could know the answer, but all somewhat perplexing.

 

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roger 04 rt

Tempted by JamesW's OP here, I programmed lambda on my LC-1 to 0.92 this afternoon and went for a ride. If I were running pure-gasoline like JamesW that would be an AFR of about 13.5:1, same as the Dyno measured his bike. But since I'm running what the pump says is Premium E10, my AFR is nearer 13.0:1.

 

I collected and plotted the data as usual, and the Motronic locked onto the new AFR setting as usual. Because of the E10, in order to get to lambda=0.92, the Motronic had to add about 13% more fuel than the base map calls for.

 

The ride was terrific, the engine seemed somewhat smoother than lambda=0.94 where I've been running lately and at 2600 RPM, 40 MPH in 5th gear, the 1150RT had no problem smoothly climbing a medium grade hill. I wonder when the power stops getting better? I must be about there but I'm thinking there must be someone who races and knows better than me.

Edited by roger 04 rt
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  • 2 weeks later...
roger 04 rt

Today I had the chance to answer a question that's been on my mind, how would my 04 RT run if I programmed lambda from 0.94 where the Wideband O2 has been (13.8) to a leaner than stock setting of lambda=1.06 (15.6:1)? The answer: Not Terrible.

 

After programming the LC-1 to the leaner setting, and then resetting the Motronic and removing the BoosterPlug, I ran a 10 mile test loop. At first, during the warm-up phase with enrichment by the Motronic and Open Loop, it seemed fine. But as I passed through 4 bars on the temperature gauge, it was apparent that the motorcycle was noticeably less responsive to the throttle. Then, fully warmed up, I started a climb through the gears, guess what? The motocycle surged around 3000 RPM in second, third and fourth gears--not a pronounced surging, just subtle modulation of the torque and shifting note at the exhaust. I couldn't wait to get back and reset to lambda=0.94.

 

So what did I learn? There is definitely an AFR component to the Boxer surging phenomenon: 6% leaner than stock is too lean for sure, and I know that 6% richer is great. Where is the spot in between the two ends that is just rich enough? Just a guess, somewhere between 14.0 and 14.4.

 

 

Edited by roger 04 rt
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A little history, I bought my '02 Rt in '04 and immediately put a Techlusion R259 on it in an effort to eliminate the dreaded surge. After playing for eight years, I bought the Booster plug and also disconnected the 02 sensor. Just wanted everyone to know that it was like I bought a new Bike! It now rides as the bike BMW should have produced.

 

Just wanted to advise and thank those who did all the hard work in sorting things out for those of us that do not have the expertise!

 

 

Carl U.

PCU9000@Yahoo.Com

 

'02 RT

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Hello Carl,

I basically did the same thing you did with my '04RT only difference is I use a home made booster plug which I believe closely performs like the real thing. The other thing I have done is connect a jumper from pin 30 to pin 87 of the code plug socket thereby simulating a yellow code plug. I had been simulating a green code plug which I preferred over the stock pink plug. Also, have disconnected the O2 sensor. My bike now runs and performs perfectly with the smoothest idle I have ever seen on a motorcycle. Acceleration is great and it cruises effortlessly in 6th gear yet. In 8 years I have never used 6th gear as the bike always felt like it was laboring below 4.5K RPM in 6th. Now all that has changed as it feels great at 3.5K in 6th no less. I decided to try the yellow CCP configuration based on a suggestion made by this threads starter, that being Roger, to another poster. It certainly did work for me. I wish I knew more about the different code plugs and how the different fueling maps function in the motronic 2.4 as they are selected by the different code plugs. I should also say that I did balance the throttle bodies using the TB stop screws with both brass air bypass screws set 1-1/4 turns out from fully closed. This after careful cleaning of throttle bodies.

 

That pretty much sums up the alterations I have made and I am very satisfied with the results. We shall soon see what a dyno run shows. :)

Edited by JamesW
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roger 04 rt

I'm really pleased for Carl and James. The research in this thread is built on the tall shoulders of others who have made hundreds of posts in this forum and others. We are grateful to them.

 

Here are two others who have used the same solution:

 

WJ IN Ohio: 2001 R1150GS w Richer Mixture

 

N in NJ: 2003 R1150RT w Richer Mixture

 

I'm aware of a couple other trials. A key to the success of this approach is that the bike be well maintained and tuned in all the ways that are so well described in this forum, including a well done TB balance and cleaning if needed. Getting an equal amount of air in each cylinder is critical.

 

Here, again, is what happens when you disconnect the O2 sensor and add a BoosterPlug or an equivalent. The top chart is the open loop AFR and the bottom is open with the BoosterPlug added (AFR improves from about 15:1 to about 14:1). Both charts would be an additional 4% richer if pure gas were used rather than the E10 I have to run:

afropenbp.jpg

 

Lastly, again the chart of a stock O2 sensor replaced by an LC-1 which is then programmed to 13.8:1. In this config I can easily cruise at 2600 RPM in 6th gear, a bit over 50 MPH, there is that much torque there.

afrresetadapt1.jpg

 

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I bought a second IAT sensor and received it last week to replace the 2.2K resistor i placed in series with the IAT on the bike. Now there's two IAT sensors in series to simulate the Booster plug. When replacing the resistor for the second IAT sensor I discovered that the 2.2 K resistor was bad. It was open. I was riding the bike without any IAT sensor. I loved my bike with the bad (open) resistor and O2 sensor disconnected. The low end grunt was there like I loved.

I had the torque feeling of old air head BMW motors.

 

Yesterday when placing the second IAT sensor in series with the one on the bike, I made a Motronic reset and made a ride, Now, it seems that the low end torque I loved so much disappeared, Acceleration is good but the torque feeling I loved so much is gone.

 

Without any IAT sensor and O2 disconnected, what is the air/fuel ratio I had with this bike ?

 

Now the bike has better idle but I miss what I loved previously without any IAT sensor.

 

My bike is a R1150RT twin spark which didn't have any surging problems.

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I have been following Rogers posts from the start and now think I have a decent understanding of what he is doing and how the montronics work on these bikes THANKS !

I have a 2002 RT that very noticeable surged when I first got it. After a very careful TB, valve adjustment, along with changing to Iridium plugs, a great deal of the surge was eliminated.

After reading a bit and talking to which I believed well informed people, I did a few other mods. I was able to find a used Lennys induct and purchased his rocket sprockets. Along with that, I purchased a Laser power chip and cat.elim. exhaust. I was told by Laser to pull my ccp and disconnect the O2. After doing this it totally transformed my bike. I have to work hard at trying to find any surge. The low end grunt is almost to much. When I crack the throttle in first the front end wants to come up.I believe the cam sprockets and the Laser chip made the most difference.I was told that the chip was double layered.I could not get an answer from Laser for exactly what that meant, or how and why the chip changed the fuel maps, but I do know it really improved the performance.I ride with a friend on an 04 RT and every time we have switched bikes his comment is on how great mine runs. I know this is not a race bike and do not want it to be, but it is certainly alot of fun to tinker with and feel the differences. I have been told that there are know real gains to be had with the mods out there ,in which I regard as hogwash. I find it very interesting what you guys are doing and the results you are achieving. Please keep it up and keep us posted

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roger 04 rt
I bought a second IAT sensor and received it last week to replace the 2.2K resistor i placed in series with the IAT on the bike. Now there's two IAT sensors in series to simulate the Booster plug. When replacing the resistor for the second IAT sensor I discovered that the 2.2 K resistor was bad. It was open. I was riding the bike without any IAT sensor. I loved my bike with the bad (open) resistor and O2 sensor disconnected. The low end grunt was there like I loved.

I had the torque feeling of old air head BMW motors.

 

Yesterday when placing the second IAT sensor in series with the one on the bike, I made a Motronic reset and made a ride, Now, it seems that the low end torque I loved so much disappeared, Acceleration is good but the torque feeling I loved so much is gone.

 

Without any IAT sensor and O2 disconnected, what is the air/fuel ratio I had with this bike ?

 

Now the bike has better idle but I miss what I loved previously without any IAT sensor.

 

My bike is a R1150RT twin spark which didn't have any surging problems.

 

Posted answer in the AIT thread.

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roger 04 rt
I have been following Rogers posts from the start and now think I have a decent understanding of what he is doing and how the montronics work on these bikes THANKS !

I have a 2002 RT that very noticeable surged when I first got it. After a very careful TB, valve adjustment, along with changing to Iridium plugs, a great deal of the surge was eliminated.

After reading a bit and talking to which I believed well informed people, I did a few other mods. I was able to find a used Lennys induct and purchased his rocket sprockets. Along with that, I purchased a Laser power chip and cat.elim. exhaust. I was told by Laser to pull my ccp and disconnect the O2. After doing this it totally transformed my bike. I have to work hard at trying to find any surge. The low end grunt is almost to much. When I crack the throttle in first the front end wants to come up.I believe the cam sprockets and the Laser chip made the most difference.I was told that the chip was double layered.I could not get an answer from Laser for exactly what that meant, or how and why the chip changed the fuel maps, but I do know it really improved the performance.I ride with a friend on an 04 RT and every time we have switched bikes his comment is on how great mine runs. I know this is not a race bike and do not want it to be, but it is certainly alot of fun to tinker with and feel the differences. I have been told that there are know real gains to be had with the mods out there ,in which I regard as hogwash. I find it very interesting what you guys are doing and the results you are achieving. Please keep it up and keep us posted

 

If the Lazer chip is richer, and you pulled the O2. The richer settings would be effective. Good to hear it worked for you. It would be interesting to know how much fuel they add. 13:1, 13.2:1, 13.8:1, etc. Thanks for posting.

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roger 04 rt
Today I had the chance to answer a question that's been on my mind, how would my 04 RT run if I programmed lambda from 0.94 where the Wideband O2 has been (13.8) to a leaner than stock setting of lambda=1.06 (15.6:1)? The answer: Not Terrible.

 

After programming the LC-1 to the leaner setting, and then resetting the Motronic and removing the BoosterPlug, I ran a 10 mile test loop. At first, during the warm-up phase with enrichment by the Motronic and Open Loop, it seemed fine. But as I passed through 4 bars on the temperature gauge, it was apparent that the motorcycle was noticeably less responsive to the throttle. Then, fully warmed up, I started a climb through the gears, guess what? The motocycle surged around 3000 RPM in second, third and fourth gears--not a pronounced surging, just subtle modulation of the torque and shifting note at the exhaust. I couldn't wait to get back and reset to lambda=0.94.

 

So what did I learn? There is definitely an AFR component to the Boxer surging phenomenon: 6% leaner than stock is too lean for sure, and I know that 6% richer is great. Where is the spot in between the two ends that is just rich enough? Just a guess, somewhere between 14.0 and 14.4.

 

 

After making this test run at 15.6:1, I turned off the motorcycle, quickly reprogrammed the LC-1 to 13.8:1 which is an instantaneous change for it. I also reconnected the BoosterPlug. Then I quickly reset the Motronic, twisted the throttle twice and restarted.

 

The motorcycle immediately went into Closed Loop mode (see the chart photo below, top line is 15.6:1 lower line is 13.8:1) but was running still at 15.6:1 ! Apparantly I was too quick with Fuse 5 and the Motronic didn't reset. It still had its adaptation values for closed loop idle at 15.6.

 

After about 10 seconds after start, it caught on that the mixture was too rich and by about 15 seconds after start had locked to the 13.8:1. This is the clearest example of Closed Loop Adaptation Values that I have spotted. (And it seems it takes more that 20 sec. to reset the Motronic--or I only think I reset it and forgot.)

 

I programmed it to 13.8:1 but it ran for short time at 15.6:1, it had to have remembered it from a few minutes earlier!

 

afr15.6.13.8.jpg

Edited by roger 04 rt
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Interesting, I have suspected that removing F5 to reset the motronic after making a change like to a different ccp is largely a waste of time as the ecu will very quickly adapt. Also shows that there is much yet to learn about the workings of the ecu aka motronic. If I had a scope I would try different code plugs and look at the time on of the injectors to get an idea how fueling is affected by different maps.

 

Going off into the wilds of eastern Oregon for 3 days on the '04RT today so will find out how some of my mods perform or not. Yes, I will have a milk shake when I get to Fields, OR. Steens Mountain beckons. :D

Edited by JamesW
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roger 04 rt

The GS-911 time stamps, to the millisecond, all the data it collects. Somewhere along the line it hit me that it could be used as a Inertia Dynomometer since it collects RPM data and the transmission ratios are printed in the R1150 BMW Repair Manual.

 

I've also been curious about the 1150 Torque at 2000 RPM at a 13.8:1 mixture. The final piece of the puzzle was using some of the HP physics that I boned-up on for the R1150 Gas Mileage thread.

 

A couple key (rough) numbers:

 

--8 to 12 ft/sec-squared is a decent rate of acceleration for town and highway driving.

 

--R1150RT and rider (in my case) weigh about 800 lbs.

 

--It takes 25 to 30 horsepower to accelerate bike and rider at 8-12 ft/sec2 plus 2-10 horsepower for aerodynamic drag between 30 and 60 MPH

 

--25 Horsepower corresponds to 65 ft-lbs of torque required at 2000 RPM. But 40 HP translates to only 52 ft-lbs. at 4000 RPM.

 

Have a look at the chart and data below which were taken in 4th and 5th gear, starting at 1500 RPM and 2000 RPM respectively and with Wide Open Throttle. It looks like (and felt like) there was just enough torque to meet the HP/Torque/Acceleration targets above at about 2000 RPM in 4th gear and about 2500 RPM in 5th.

 

There's lots to discover but, for instance, look at the 81 degree TPS angle and the 60-70 ft-lbs of torque. Notice too, the relatively flat rate of acceleration from 2000/2500 to 4000 RPM. It's making more HP as it accelerates but air-related drag is increasing too.

 

The graphs are choppy because I didn't use a high enough sampling rate and drop off at 4000 RPM or so because that's where I let go of the throttle on the in-town road where I was trying this out.

 

lowtorque.jpg

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  • 1 month later...
roger 04 rt

Now that I have about 2000 miles on my '04 1150RT, wanted to see how things have settled in. It has been a couple of months since I last reset the Motronic and cleared any Adaptation Values that might have been "learned" by the Motronic. So I made a couple checks.

 

First I measured the warm-up transition from start to running closed loop. As mentioned, I haven't reset my Motronic for over a month and have taken many, varied rides. I wanted to see how things looked and whether there was clearly ADAPTATION going on. The results are that the Motronic has "learned" about the BoosterPlug, E10 fuel I run and Wideband O2 set at 13.8:1.

 

The result that can be seen from the chart below is that everything has been shifted to the desired afr of 13.8:1, including the cranking and warm up period. Booster, E10 fuel and LC-1 are operating in harmony with each other.

 

Below is the warm-up from a cold (85F is cold today) to hot (Closed Loop) motor. You can see the cranking and afterstart enrichment on the left at about 12-12.5:1, the initial warmup at 13.1:1 (about 5% below 13.8), final warmup enrichment at 13.3:1 (3%) for a few seconds and then smoothly transitioning into closed loop for the right hand half of the chart. The Close Loop AFR spread is a mere 2.5% because of the speed of the LC-1. Gas mileage from for the most recent tank of fuel running premium E10 was 44 mpg(235 miles and 5.3 gallons).

 

The lines on the chart are blue 13.8:1 and red 13.3:1.

adaptsurprise.jpg

 

Here is an Autolite Plug with 2,000 miles of mostly local driving at 13.8.

13.8autolite.JPG

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Hi Roger

 

I love your graphs but can you give me your feeling about driving the bike at 13.8. Acceleration ? Torque ?

 

Is it really different from my setting with O2 disconnected with BP ?

 

Is there more difference between 13.8 operation and my setting than my setting vs stock condition ?

 

Thanks a lot

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roger 04 rt
Hi Roger

 

I love your graphs but can you give me your feeling about driving the bike at 13.8. Acceleration ? Torque ?

 

Is it really different from my setting with O2 disconnected with BP ?

 

Is there more difference between 13.8 operation and my setting than my setting vs stock condition ?

 

Thanks a lot

 

On my bike the torque range has been extended downward. The other day I was in traffic going 75 in 6th, traffic slowed to 45 and then reaccelerated to 75. I never downshifted. In most gears there's a lot of muscle at 2000-2500 rpm, by 2700 rpm it's flying. I run one gear higher than before most of the time.

 

How is the LC-1 different from open loop and booster? It may not be. If your injectors have average flow rate, fuel pressure is average and you run fuel without ethanol, you get a similar result either way. The curve above shows that with an LC-1 wideband, even if fuel pressure and injectors are on the low side, battery voltage is low and you're running E10 fuel, you are guaranteed to get 13.8 or whatever you've programmed. This happens because with the LC-1 you continue to use the Motronic's powerful closed loop adaptive algorithms.

 

Because we haven't put measurement instruments on your bike it's hard to say what the difference would be. But I can imagine this Open Loop scenario: E10, low fuel pressure, low injector flow leading to 12% leaness. So if the BoosterPlug adds 6% richness you would still be 6% leaner than closed loop. In other words the actual Open Loop improvement is bike dependent.

 

You can usually get a smooth running engine by equalizing the air at all RPMs and then injecting enough fuel to burn 100% of the oxygen in the cylinder. The stock closed loop at 14.7 does that in theory. In practice, best power mixture is nearer mid-low13s.

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  • 1 month later...
roger 04 rt

After my recent Fuel System Failure, I decided to further richen the mixture of my R1150RT from 13.8 (where it had been for several months) to 13.5. 13.8 was good and a bit smoother after the injector cleaning but I wanted to see what 13.5 was like.

 

I didn't make any quantitative measurements yet but it seems that the engine is smoother and has even a bit more pull than at 13.8.

 

I don't think I'll go much further than 13.5 because the warm-up fueling has gotten richer through adaptation, but I am testing some other ideas.

 

Most of the time I've been using a BoosterPlug that I already owned to pre-offset the fuel table to be 6% richer. This meant that the Motronic had to do less work to adapt from its basic setting at 14.7 (which is more like 15.4 on E10), to get to 13.8 and now 13.5.

 

This weekend, I disconnected the BP, left the LC-1 at 13.5, and reset the Motronic. Then took a couple long rides at various RPMs and loads to help the Motronic re-learn the corrections. Some quick measurements show that it has Adapted. When I have a chance I'll publish a graph or two.

 

The other thing I'm thinking about is changing my fuel injectors. After having them cleaned and tested. I have the Bosch P/N and believe that these are 325cc per minute injectors. I'm going to try and find some exact replacements that are 360cc. That would be 10% more fuel, 4% for ethanol and 6% for 13.8. The idea is that the Motronic would have to do much less work to rebuild the adaptations after a reset.

 

Anyone have any thoughts on this bigger injector idea?

Edited by roger 04 rt
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Most of the time I've been using a BoosterPlug that I already owned to pre-offset the fuel table to be 6% richer. This meant that the Motronic had to do less work to adapt from its basic setting at 14.7 (which is more like 15.4 on E10), to get to 13.8 and now 13.5.

 

Since you're running open loop, won't the Motronic eventually adapt for the Booster Plug and make it redundant?

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Morning Roger

 

Are you seeing 100% injector duty cycle at any point now? If so then you might see some gain from larger injectors.

 

Your other choices are raising the injector supply voltage maybe using a battery direct power relay.

 

Or adding an adjustable pressure regulator in the fuel return line or even cobbling in a k1200rs (50psi) fuel pressure regulator.

 

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roger 04 rt
Most of the time I've been using a BoosterPlug that I already owned to pre-offset the fuel table to be 6% richer. This meant that the Motronic had to do less work to adapt from its basic setting at 14.7 (which is more like 15.4 on E10), to get to 13.8 and now 13.5.

 

Since you're running open loop, won't the Motronic eventually adapt for the Booster Plug and make it redundant?

 

Thanks for responding.

 

The simple answer is yes it will adapt it out based on my experience and measurements--although some still disagree.

 

The more complex answer is that a BoosterPlug can be valuable to what I'm doing. Let me explain.

 

The basic fuel table in the Motronic is something like a 12 X 12 or 16 X 16 table, the exact number isn't important for this explanation. The adaptation table could be the same size, but it is just as likely that it is smaller, perhaps 4 X 6 or smaller, using calculated estimates for areas where the Motronic cannot make measurements with the O2 sensor.

 

In my case running E10 fuel (4%), and targeting 13.8:1 (6% below 14.7:1) I would ideally like every cell of the table richer by 10%. By using a BoosterPlug, dropping the IAT sensor 20C, I've in effect richened the 12 X 12 table 6%. This means the Motronic doesn't have to Adapt the entire 10%, just the last 4%. And the BP effects every cell, not just the cells in the Adaptation table.

 

This may seem hypothetical, but I've measured it and it's not. It takes much longer to get a fully adapted 13.8:1 when I don't start with the BP installed, several additional rides. When I dropped to 13.5:1 which is 12% below the 12 X 12 fuel table plus E10 it was a couple long rides before the bike felt its best in all gears at all RPMs.

 

So to get a 10% shift to every cell in the 12 X 12 table, I'm considering 10% higher flow rate (360cc injectors) or adding my stock IAT in series with the BP. I like the injector idea better because it's hard to measure everything the Motronic might do with a 30C air temp shift.

Edited by roger 04 rt
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roger 04 rt
Morning Roger

 

Are you seeing 100% injector duty cycle at any point now? If so then you might see some gain from larger injectors.

 

Your other choices are raising the injector supply voltage maybe using a battery direct power relay.

 

Or adding an adjustable pressure regulator in the fuel return line or even cobbling in a k1200rs (50psi) fuel pressure regulator.

 

Hi DR,

 

Not seeing 100% duty cycle yet but per my Adaptation tables above, I'd like to bring Open Loop fueling closer to Closed Loop fueling so the adaptation range is smaller.

 

The idea of the bigger injectors is 10% more fuel from the stock fuel table numbers and less adapatation.

 

A 15% boost in the pressure regulator makes sense, it would create about 8% more fuel. It's just awfully hard to get at. The battery idea sounds a little harder to implement.

RB

Edited by roger 04 rt
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Good morning Roger,

I see this thread has resurrected itself once again lol.. I guess my memory isn't what it once was and this question or assumption was probably addressed before but in case it wasn't my question Is: If one is running always in open loop as i do with the O2 sensor disconnected, then the "learning" ability of the Motronic becomes a non issue, correct?

 

Thanks Roger, DR, all.

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roger 04 rt

JamesW, Yes, this thread has reared its ugly head because I'm trying another experiment.

 

Your memory is perfect. Once you disconnect the O2 sensor, the Motronic will never change its Adaptive Values. They remain either what they are, or if you reset the Motronic, all multipliers become 100% (1).

 

That said, your bike will never again correct for low/high fuel pressure, a partly clogged fuel or air filter, or any other wear items (e.g. Carbon build up in the cylinders). It remains up to you to be aware that something has changed. This is why I'm a fan of Closed Loop solutions like the LC-1. RB

Edited by roger 04 rt
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Afternoon Roger,

Yes, that is what i thought and I am perfectly OK with the Motronic not being able to adjust or trim the state of tune to compensate for lack of preventive maintenance. Kind of becomes like my '81 R100RT which to me is a really big plus. Thanks :)

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roger 04 rt
...

 

Or adding an adjustable pressure regulator in the fuel return line or even cobbling in a k1200rs (50psi) fuel pressure regulator.

 

Good Morning DR,

Finding a replacement 360-ish cc injector doesn't seem as easy as I thought.

 

Do I have to lift the tail to get a 3.5 bar k1100rs regulator into the r1150rt?

RB

 

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Morning Roger

 

Yes, no, sort of!

 

You need to lift the rear enough to get the lower air box out. That isn't as easy as it sounds.

 

On installing the K-RS regulator you m-i-g-h-t be able to get that in by just loosening the air box & moving it around in place as I "believe" the stock K-RS plastic injector lines won't work without cutting so maybe with cut lines you can wiggle it in (probably won't get the stock one out without cutting the lines).

 

Have you thought about trying an adjustable pressure regulator in the fuel return line. If you jack the pressure up post stock regulator that will drive the drive the injector pressure up to that same pressure.

 

If you find new higher output injectors make sure the resistance is close to what you have now (not all injectors use the same resistance as some are quick rise that use a different ( 2 stage) power supply and/or different drivers in the fueling computer.

 

Added: To find the flow difference between the old (original) & newer (higher) pressure-- find the square root of of the new pressure divided by the old pressure, then multiply the result by the cc's of the injectors at their old pressure.

 

Edited by dirtrider
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roger 04 rt

Hi DR, and thanks again.

 

I think the adjustable regulator in the return line is the way to go--maybe hard to get he K-RS in, and injectors have so many variables (flow, resistance, height, etc.). I've got some QDs that I could use for temporary insertion to try this out.

 

Using your formula, 53 to 55 PSI would get me right where I want to be. A bit more than the 3.5 bar of the K-RS.

RB

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roger 04 rt
... I decided to further richen the mixture of my R1150RT from 13.8 (where it had been for several months) to 13.5. 13.8 was good and a bit smoother after the injector cleaning but I wanted to see what 13.5 was like. ... Most of the time I've been using a BoosterPlug that I already owned to pre-offset the fuel table to be 6% richer. This meant that the Motronic had to do less work to adapt from its basic setting at 14.7 (which is more like 15.4 on E10), to get to 13.8 and now 13.5. ... This weekend, I disconnected the BP, left the LC-1 at 13.5, and reset the Motronic. ... When I have a chance I'll publish a graph or two. ...

Here is a graph that I plotted a few days ago after fully reseting my Motronic, settting the LC-1 to 13.5. It took several rides at many RPMs, gears and TPS positions to relearn the Adaptation Values. Here's the plot, made after a warm restart, meaning that the bike was at temperature and was back in Closed Loop quickly.

 

fullyadapted13.5.jpg

 

What you can see is that for the first 12 seconds (until the 2:27 mark) the bike is Open Loop. In that period there is the After Start Enrichment and Warm-up Enrichment--the up-slope that levels at 13.2. Then at 2:27 it snaps into Closed Loop at 13.5.

 

What is noteworthy about this plot is that the entire curve has been shifted down by 12% or said another way, the Motronic has added 12% more fuel to both Open Loop and Closed Loop--4% more fuel because I run E10 and 8% more because the LC-1 is programmed to 13.5:1.

 

If the Closed Loop learning had not been applied to Open Loop (and you can see where Open Loop starts after a Motronic reset in plots from earlier in this long thread, here), The Open Loop phase would have started about 8% higher at 13:1 and the pre-closed-loop plateau would be at about 14.3:1, then it would have snapped down to 13.5 for the Closed Loop phase.

 

For me, this pretty fully settles the question of Adaptation and whether the Motronic MA 2.4 has that ability or not. Sometime when I get a chance I'll also measure the WOT AFR to confirm Adaptation there as well, but as an Anti-Knock measure, it's just as important to have Adapted there so I don't expect any surprises.

 

RB

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In the prior post I showed that the Motronic had Adapted Open Loop fueling, without a BoosterPlug or any other modifications, to the 13.5:1 AFR that the LC-1 Wideband O2 replacement is set to.

 

Because the move from 14.7 plus the leanness of E10 requires the Motronic to add 14% to the stock fuel tables to reach 13.5, and because adaptation is deliberately a slow process, it took several rides over several hours for the Motronic to dial itself in.

 

Next I wanted to see how quickly it would Adapt if I shifted the IAT sensor by 30C, an 11% increase in fueling, such that the Motronic only had to move the last 3% (14% - 11%).

 

I bought a few EV1 connectors and wired them in series so that the BoosterPlug output had the stock IAT added to it. I then checked with the GS-911, the series pair did shift them temperature -30C. Next the Motronic was reset and I went out for a test ride. (LC-1 still set to 13.5.)

 

The result was that the bike needed little adaptation to get Open and Closed Loop fueling in sync. This produced the smoothest engine performance in all the testing I've done, and kept the point at which I've got strong roll-on throttle at about 2600 rpm.

 

My next test will be to remove the BoosterPlug, run with only the stock IAT and boost the fuel pressure to 50-55 psi using an external fuel pressure regulator from Aeromotive, installed in the return line to the tank. I will select and measure a pressure that boosts the fuelIng by about 12% and test ride to confirm similar results to the 30C temperature shift.

Edited by roger 04 rt
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  • 2 weeks later...

Today I got around to boosting the fuel pressure to match my Wideband O2 setting of 13.8:1. I used an Aeromotive 13301 (picture below) and increased the fuel pressure from 43.5 (3 bar) stock to about 52 psi. I'll post a photo of the install later.

 

Bottom line: My R1150RT is running its strongest and smoothest yet. The pull from 2,000 RPM on up in 4th gear is terrific. Fifth and Sixth gears are similarly strong. The bike is stock except for the Wideband O2 and the increased fuel pressure.

 

Here's why I have decided to boost the fuel pressure. First, I believe that BMW has done a good job designing the basic fuel map for the 1150 and I don't want to lose their design knowledge. Look at the fuel map for a Ducati that I linked from Brad the Bike boy's site. This is not the same map as an R1150RT but it can illustrate some points.

 

You can see that it has 16 RPM columns across the bottom and 16 throttle angles up the side. This table holds 256 values that specify how long, in thousandths of a second, to turn on the injectors for certain RPM and throttle positions. These values are only valid for gasoline without ethanol, and for one air temperature, one barometric pressure and for 43.5 psi fuel pressure. The R1150 has sensors for actual air temp., barometric pressure and battery voltage. Then it uses the O2 sensor in Closed Loop to determine the actual fuel pulse needed to correct for againg and component tolerance and E10 fuel. It compares the actual pulse calculated by Closed Loop to the fuel table and comes up with a correction factor. BMW calls these correction factors: Adaptation values. From all the reading I've done there is probably no better than a 4 X 4 table of Adaptation values, maybe fewer. And these values change slowly. And while you're waiting for the slow change your bike doesn't run it's best.

 

The numbers in the table have been designed for a Closed Loop mixture of 14.7:1. When I fill up with E10 fuel, it would be better if every number in the table were 4% larger since ethanol is a leaner fuel than gasoline. Moving the Closed loop to 13.8 means the numbers should all be 6% higher. So 6% for my AFR change and 4% for ethanol means I would like every number in the table to be 10% larger.

 

It's not really possible for us to go in and change the numbers in the table to make them 10% bigger. But you can boost fuel pressure by about 20%, and the injectors then squirt 10% more fuel using the stock map numbers. This means the fuel table now matches my wideband O2 setting of 13.8:1. And that means the Motronic doesn't have to work hard to Adapt the two to match.

 

The fuel pressure regulator has done away with the need for a BoosterPlug to richen the Fuel Map (by lowering the temperature the Motronic sees and I'm running without one.

 

I'll add some adaptation tables in the next post.

 

I've only had one day of running but the combo of wideband and add-on fuel pressure regulator look like a winner.

RB

 

 

fuelmapexample.jpg

 

 

0539a811-d7bc-4780-a2aa-fdb1cb34cafd-800.jpg

Edited by roger 04 rt
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Great Roger

 

It is a tempting mod if it is easy to use this device without too much fuel tube alterations.

 

Could you give us the mpg your doing with this mod ?

 

Thanks

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Great Roger

 

It is a tempting mod if it is easy to use this device without too much fuel tube alterations.

 

Could you give us the mpg your doing with this mod ?

 

Thanks

Mileage at 13.8:1 with BoosterPlug was about 50 highway cruise and 43 mpg (US) combined. I'll be checking the mileage but I don't expect it to be much different maybe a couple miles per gallon.

 

It would be great if you could also try it in open mode with the BP connected.

From earlier in this thread, here is the 1150 twin spark, on E10 fuel, with and without the BP in Open Loop. http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=777434#Post777434

afropenbp.jpg

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There's really no point in a BP when you boost the fuel pressure. They do the same things in different ways. Whatever additional richness you want from the BP, just dial it in as added pressure.

 

A BP and 52 psi would add 16% to Open Loop fueling, much more than I was looking for.

Edited by roger 04 rt
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I mentioned a couple posts ago that I would show where I've temporarily fit the Aeromotive 13301 Fuel Pressure Regulator (those of you who are more natural mechanics, try not to cringe at the tie-wraps). In the photo below you can see it in position below the right-hand throttle body intake-tube (where many have installed an external fuel filter).

 

The Aeromotive 13301 has four inputs (three of which are plugged) and a return. I've attached 18" lengths of fuel line hose with QDs on each end of the hose. This has allowed me to snap it in series with the return line from the R1150's fuel distributor, returning to the tank. The input of the 13301 is QDed to the fuel distributor and the output of the 13301 is QDed to the tank return line. The excess hose is looped around, staying clear of the moving parts of the throttle body.

 

The experiments have gone very well. The 52 psi setting adds almost 10% to every fuel pulse (that's 4% for E10 fuel and 6% for my Wideband O2 shift to 13.8:1). It does it reliably, allows me to remove the BoosterPlug so the Motronic knows the actual intake temperature and without waiting for the Motronic to go through a lengthy Adaptation Cycle (more in a coming post).

 

Because I have the Wideband O2 installed and can connect an AFR gauge at any time, I could confirm that 52 psi brought Open Loop fueling to about 13.8:1 on my motorcyle--an unexpected advantage of using the Innovate Motorsports LC-1. If I were to go leaner or richer with the Wideband O2, I will change the fuel pressure up or down as needed so that Adapation is nominally ZERO.

 

As for a final home I'm planning to get some proper clamps and make it look like the external fuel filter installation (or if I can find a spot under the tank, perhaps there. When I do that the hoses will be shortened and the extra pair of QDs will be removed in favor of Oetiker clamps.

 

Any suggestions on how or where to locate the 13301 would be welcomed.

 

fprinstalled.JPG

 

Edited by roger 04 rt
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