2007 RT won't idle

[Shane J.]

I replaced my throttle cams and the bike ran well except the idle would intermittently run too high when coming to a stop sign, and then drop to normal. I removed the panels and checked all linkage and could find no issues with that. Next I used my GS911 wifi to do a throttle synch. The right side was so far out that I couldn't use my homemade fluid manometer, so I purchased the Morgan Carbtune Pro. When that arrived I proceeded to synch the throttle bodies and adjust the cables for a smooth idle. It ran great in the garage at all rpm's. After it cooled down and I replaced all the panels, winter had returned, so it was a week before I could try to go for a ride. I got nowhere because the bike will not run at idle. At 2000 rpm and above it runs great, but as soon as I release the throttle and it slows down it will die at around 1200-1400 rpm.

I have the bodywork back off. I had one stored fault, 10010 (0x271A), Lambda (02) sensor cylinder 1, signal or value over threshold. I cleared that code and ran the bike at 2000rpm for three minutes and at shut down the fault did not come back. My next thought is to run the engine to full operating temperature to see if it will idle well enough, then check the throttle synch.

I tried doing a data log but the download was in a foreign language, Chinese or some such.

Any and all suggestions are gladly welcomed, I am a bit out of my comfort zone on this one.

[dirtrider]

30 minutes ago, Shane J. said:

I replaced my throttle cams and the bike ran well except the idle would intermittently run too high when coming to a stop sign, and then drop to normal. I removed the panels and checked all linkage and could find no issues with that. Next I used my GS911 wifi to do a throttle synch. The right side was so far out that I couldn't use my homemade fluid manometer, so I purchased the Morgan Carbtune Pro. When that arrived I proceeded to synch the throttle bodies and bmw. It ran great in the garage at all rpm's. After it cooled down and I replaced all the panels, winter had returned, so it was a week before I could try to go for a ride. I got nowhere because the bike will not run at idle. At 2000 rpm and above it runs great, but as soon as I release the throttle and it slows down it will die at around 1200-1400 rpm.

I have the bodywork back off. I had one stored fault, 10010 (0x271A), Lambda (02) sensor cylinder 1, signal or value over threshold. I cleared that code and ran the bike at 2000rpm for three minutes and at shut down the fault did not come back. My next thought is to run the engine to full operating temperature to see if it will idle well enough, then check the throttle synch.

I tried doing a data log but the download was in a foreign language, Chinese or some such.

Any and all suggestions are gladly welcomed, I am a bit out of my comfort zone on this one.

Afternoon Shane

 

We can probably help you but we need a LOT more information.

 

What brand cams did you install?  

 

Explain this operation in more detail__ "When that arrived I proceeded to synch the throttle bodies and adjust the cables for a smooth idle"  The 1200 has a computer controlled idle, the cables should not effect the idle. You didn't mess with the base idle screws did you?????  

 

The cables ONLY set the above idle balance. The actual curb idle is controlled by the fueling computer using the idle steppers. 

 

See if you can give us a more detailed report on what you actually did (as many details as possible).

 

What all did you adjust (every item) & how much did you move it.  

 

 

[Shane J.]

D.R., here is a link to my post about installing the cams.

I did need to remove the shafts and I used the feeler gauge registration method for that. I feel that the install was successful. Other than a wandering idle afterwards the bike ran great.

To synch I used the GS911 and followed their procedure. It parked the steppers for me, I used the manometer and the cable adjuster on the right hand throttle body to balance. Then the GS 911 reset the steppers and I did a tps reset. When it was done I only adjusted the cable slack at the throttle. At this point the engine was running perfect, no wandering idle, idle at correct rpm, smooth transition through throttle run-up. Then the bike sat for 10 days and when I went to use it, that is when it would not idle.

I did not touch the screws with the blue marks.

[dirtrider]

5 minutes ago, Shane J. said:

D.R., here is a link to my post about installing the cams.

I did need to remove the shafts and I used the feeler gauge registration method for that. I feel that the install was successful. Other than a wandering idle afterwards the bike ran great.

To synch I used the GS911 and followed their procedure. It parked the steppers for me, I used the manometer and the cable adjuster on the right hand throttle body to balance. Then the GS 911 reset the steppers and I did a tps reset. When it was done I only adjusted the cable slack at the throttle. At this point the engine was running perfect, no wandering idle, idle at correct rpm, smooth transition through throttle run-up. Then the bike sat for 10 days and when I went to use it, that is when it would not idle.

I did not touch the screws with the blue marks.

Afternoon Shane

 

OK that helps, 

 

It sort of sounds like either a stick coil issue an idle stepper issue. 

 

First off try a battery disconnect for about 5 minutes (to clear all the adaptives), then re-connect the battery & do a key-on fully closed to fully open twist grip to reset the TPS learn. Then see what you have.

 

If still a problem then use your GS-911 to see what the lambda sensors are doing when the problem shows up.

 

If those are both active then next see if it will run on just the upper spark plugs (are both side pipes hot?)

 

Then see if it will run on just the lower spark plugs, you might have to give it a little throttle to keep it running on the lowers  (are both side pipes hot?)

 

 

[Shane J.]

I will update after trying these.

Thank you for the help.

[Shane J.]

D.R., when I did the battery disconnect I was checking voltage and only had 12.2v. I ran a charger for an hour at 10 amps and there was no change. I am setting up another battery to try. Could low voltage cause my symptoms? That might explain why it started having problems after sitting for ten days. Once I have a good battery in there I will try the other suggestions if there is no change.

[dirtrider]

11 hours ago, Shane J. said:

D.R., when I did the battery disconnect I was checking voltage and only had 12.2v. I ran a charger for an hour at 10 amps and there was no change. I am setting up another battery to try. Could low voltage cause my symptoms? That might explain why it started having problems after sitting for ten days. Once I have a good battery in there I will try the other suggestions if there is no change.

Morning Shane

 

At 12.2 volts I'm surprised that it even started. Is you meter accurate?

 

How are you measuring the voltage? If directly at the battery posts then that is pretty dead.  If using a GS-911 then that is measuring system voltage & depending on the system load it will be lower than battery voltage. 

 

12.2 volts by itself probably didn't cause your idle problems BUT at a base of 12.2 volts what did the voltage drop to during key-ON, or even lower during engine cranking? 

 

Low system voltage can cause weird things to happen with the electronics but if the charging system is working OK then system voltage should have increased after engine starting & stabilization. As a rule the electronics recover fairly quickly once the voltage increases. 

 

 

[Hosstage]

This chart is often an eye-opener for many.

 

[Shane J.]

21 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Afternoon Shane

 

OK that helps, 

 

It sort of sounds like either a stick coil issue an idle stepper issue. 

 

First off try a battery disconnect for about 5 minutes (to clear all the adaptives), then re-connect the battery & do a key-on fully closed to fully open twist grip to reset the TPS learn. Then see what you have.

 

If still a problem then use your GS-911 to see what the lambda sensors are doing when the problem shows up.

 

If those are both active then next see if it will run on just the upper spark plugs (are both side pipes hot?)

 

Then see if it will run on just the lower spark plugs, you might have to give it a little throttle to keep it running on the lowers  (are both side pipes hot?)

 

 

What SHOULD be the correct readings on the lambda sensors? The problem is there from starting to full warmup.

[dirtrider]

22 minutes ago, Shane J. said:

What SHOULD be the correct readings on the lambda sensors? The problem is there from starting to full warmup.

Afternoon Shane

 

There really is no should but there is a shouldn't.

 

On a warm/hot engine (long enough for the Lambda sensors to go active) both side Lambda voltages should be continuously varying.  They should be toggling across the 450mV range. If one or both sensors are continually below 450Mv or continually above  450mV  then you have an inactive (or vary lazy) Lambda sensor.   If the voltage stays fixed at around  450Mv then the sensor hasn't heated yet, or hasn't become active yet,  or is somehow not properly connected. 

 

Something like below is fairly normal. 

 

Note: for future readers, this is for the older narrow band Lambda sensors not the newer wide band sensors.

 

 

[dirtrider]

47 minutes ago, Shane J. said:

 The problem is there from starting to full warmup.

More info_

 

If the problem is there from start up then it is happening before the Lambda sensors become active so look more towards a spark issue (one spark plug not working), or an idle stepper not working or, a fuel injector type issue (but usually a fuel injector issue is there at all RPM ranges not just an idle issue)   

 

If you can get it to idle decently, then carefully disconnect both idle steppers with it idling. See if it then still idles OK. If so then turn it off.  Then try a new cold start (you will probably have to hold the throttle slightly open until the engine warms a little). Then allow it to idle & see if the stalling problem is gone. 

[Shane J.]

Is the idle stepper number 4 in this diagram? Or is it number 2?

[dirtrider]

12 minutes ago, Shane J. said:

Is the idle stepper number 4 in this diagram? Or is it number 2?

Evening Shane

 

It is # 2,    BMW calls it an   "IDLE CONTROL DEVICE"

 

#4 is the TPS   (Throttle Position Sensor)

 

Caution: never remove the idle stepper from the throttle body with the wires attached then turn the key-ON to see how it works. The pintle will come all the way out  & fall on the floor then it is a REAL PAIN to get to go back in. 

[Shane J.]

4 hours ago, dirtrider said:

More info_

 

If the problem is there from start up then it is happening before the Lambda sensors become active so look more towards a spark issue (one spark plug not working), or an idle stepper not working or, a fuel injector type issue (but usually a fuel injector issue is there at all RPM ranges not just an idle issue)   

 

If you can get it to idle decently, then carefully disconnect both idle steppers with it idling. See if it then still idles OK. If so then turn it off.  Then try a new cold start (you will probably have to hold the throttle slightly open until the engine warms a little). Then allow it to idle & see if the stalling problem is gone. 

On the new cold start, reconnect the steppers before restart or after?

[dirtrider]

31 minutes ago, Shane J. said:

On the new cold start, reconnect the steppers before restart or after?

Evening Shane

 

Leave them disconnected as that will hold their pintle  position. This will ONLY work if it was idling good when you disconnected them.   

[Shane J.]

So it idled better with the steppers disconnected. Hooking them back up and it has trouble idling until it coughs and dies. I also ran through the synchro procedure to park the steppers and it idles smoothly, a bit high at 1500-1600 rpm, but smooth. Once the steppers are again functioning the rough idle is back.

[dirtrider]

11 minutes ago, Shane J. said:

So it idled better with the steppers disconnected. Hooking them back up and it has trouble idling until it coughs and dies. I also ran through the synchro procedure to park the steppers and it idles smoothly, a bit high at 1500-1600 rpm, but smooth. Once the steppers are again functioning the rough idle is back.

Evening shane

 

Put your GS-911 back on it, then with it idling with the steppers operational see the stepper positions are on both sides. 

 

Then with it idling OK with the steppers disconnected do the same thing then see what the stepper COMMANDED counts (stepper position)  are doing.

 

What we are trying to figure out is:

 

If each  stepper is being commanded correctly.

 

If each stepper is actually responding correctly. (this is difficult to tell)

 

If the steppers are being commanded correctly but the engine fueling isn't responding to the stepper pintle air flow change.  

 

 

[Shane J.]

idle actuator position 1 and two are 11, both when connected and unconnected. And now it is stumbling in either situation. When they are connected the position stays at 11.

[Shane J.]

with them connected I shut off and restarted. It idled very rough and now the numbers were bouncing between 35 and 26 until it coughed and died. Now it won't idle at all.

[Shane J.]

Now it is idleing and the numbers are moving , started at 40-58 and then was dropping and down to 8, bouncing to 62, then 40, then 11, then 26, 32, and then a cough and died.

[dirtrider]

12 hours ago, Shane J. said:

idle actuator position 1 and two are 11, both when connected and unconnected. And now it is stumbling in either situation. When they are connected the position stays at 11.

Ok it seems like they are not responding correctly. You might have to key off then do a re-start to get them to respond again after disconnection (Try that).

 

One thing I forgot to have you check is for tight throttle cables at the throttle bodies. If you have a tight cable that doesn't allow full return to the base idle screw that can drive the stepper control crazy as it keeps trying remove air flow that it can't do.

 

If you find a tight cable there are cable adjusters up by the twist grip that allows putting more cable slack in both sides evenly so no re-balance necessary.   

[dirtrider]

1 minute ago, Shane J. said:

Now it is idleing and the numbers are moving , started at 40-58 and then was dropping and down to 8, bouncing to 62, then 40, then 11, then 26, 32, and then a cough and died.

The fueling computer seems to be having issues in obtaining smooth stepper control. That is going to complicate things as we still don't know if both cylinders are firing at full power or if one cylinder is misfiring therefore causing the fueling computer to try to compensate. 

 

Check for tight throttle cables?

[dirtrider]

With stepper numbers like "started at 40-58 and then was dropping and down to 8, bouncing to 62, then 40, then 11, then 26, 32, and then a cough and died" __ that sounds like it has some sort of an air leak     (or throttle arms not firmly contacting the idle stop screws)     as the stepper counts should be higher & stable. 

 

Are the air boots between the throttle bodies & cylinder heads FULLY & TIGHTLY sealing with no tears or leaks? 

[Shane J.]

I think I found the problem. Right hand throttle is not touching the screw when relaxed. Now to figure out where and why the cable is too short/tight.

[Shane J.]

20 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

With stepper numbers like "started at 40-58 and then was dropping and down to 8, bouncing to 62, then 40, then 11, then 26, 32, and then a cough and died" __ that sounds like it has some sort of an air leak (or throttle arms not firmly contacting the idle stop screws) as the stepper counts should be higher & stable. 

 

Are the air boots between the throttle bodies & cylinder heads FULLY & TIGHTLY sealing with no tears or leaks? 

You nailed it. Right hand throttle arm is off the idle stop screw.

[dirtrider]

12 hours ago, Shane J. said:

I think I found the problem. Right hand throttle is not touching the screw when relaxed. Now to figure out where and why the cable is too short/tight.

Evening Shane

 

A few reasons__ 

 

Make sure the cable is FULLY pushed into the cable splitter box (sometimes they get pulled out while working on the throttle bodies).

 

Make sure the cable is FULLY pushed down into the throttle body  (sometimes they don't seat correctly) 

 

Make sure the cable is tracking ALL the way around the TB cam in the groove, (I have seen them be outside the groove)

 

When you find & fix the tight cable you will probably have to do a new above-idle  throttle balance.

 

 

 

[Shane J.]

Solution found. Right side throttle cable bushing was part way out of the hole on the throttle body. Much better now! Thank you for walking me through it D.R.!

 

[Shane J.]

16 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Evening Shane

 

A few reasons__ 

 

Make sure the cable is FULLY pushed into the cable splitter box (sometimes they get pulled out while working on the throttle bodies).

 

Make sure the cable is FULLY pushed down into the throttle body  (sometimes they don't seat correctly) 

 

Make sure the cable is tracking ALL the way around the TB cam in the groove, (I have seen them be outside the groove)

 

When you find & fix the tight cable you will probably have to do a new above-idle  throttle balance.

 

 

 

How far above idle should I do that balance? I did a balance at idle and it was fine until 911 reset the steppers. Then it idled very rough. With the manometer off I adjusted the balance by ear until it smoothed out. I think if I put the manometer back on it is going to show out of balance. Once I had it idling smoothly i rode to town and back. Everything is fine except I am back to my original problem. When downshifting and coming to a stop the idle runs up above 2500rpm until I come to a complete stop, then after a moment it will drop to normal. This is the problem I was trying to solve when I created the no idle problem.

[dirtrider]

33 minutes ago, Shane J. said:

How far above idle should I do that balance? I did a balance at idle and it was fine until 911 reset the steppers. Then it idled very rough. With the manometer off I adjusted the balance by ear until it smoothed out. I think if I put the manometer back on it is going to show out of balance. Once I had it idling smoothly i rode to town and back. Everything is fine except I am back to my original problem. When downshifting and coming to a stop the idle runs up above 2500rpm until I come to a complete stop, then after a moment it will drop to normal. This is the problem I was trying to solve when I created the no idle problem.

Afternoon Shane

 

First off, quit resetting those darn steppers. You are erasing the stored learned adaptives. The steppers reset themselves at every new key on so that the basic pintle reset (re-home) is done at every engine start. 

 

You are getting into the guessing area without trapping the fueling computer data while actually riding. 

 

There is an engine RPM fuel cut-off point on dropped throttle so if the TPS is not reading correctly that could cause your  "2500rpm until I come to a complete stop".

 

Or sticking throttle return (are the throttle levers SMOOTHLY returning all the way to the idle stop screws?)  Check with a very gentle throttle return, don't allow the throttle to snap shut, just a slow gentle return. 

 

Are the throttle body return springs contacting the (throttle shaft-to-cable cam) retention screws (if used)?

 

I would sure like to see the engine & sensor trapped data just prior to, during, & right after that  2500rpm until I come to a complete stop problem.

 

What is your current idle stepper counts at idle with a hot engine?

 

Do the stepper counts ever get into independent control? On cold start & well into engine warm up the steppers should be linked (ie read the same side to side). Once they go independent each side will usually read a slightly different count but will go back into linked at throttle movement (throttle follower to prevent engine stalling or a quickly dropped throttle).

 

You mentioned you did a balance at idle, you CAN'T do that as the steppers control the idle balance.

 

Do the above idle balance at 2500--3000 rpm's.  Let the idle do what it wants as the fueling computer should monitor then automatically correct that.   

 

If you can run that engine until the steppers go into independent control what is the stepper count on each side?  If there is a big difference then you either still have an air leak, or a throttle plate opening difference, or a throttle plate area air leak, or a sticking throttle return (one of both sides not FULLY returning to their idle stops).  

 

 

[dirtrider]

Afternoon Shane

 

Check your PM (Personal Messages) as I sent you some info__

 

 

[Shane J.]

I am probably using incorrect terminology to describe my actions. To do the balance I follow the instructions that the gs911 gives as it walks me through. It parks the steppers, has me balance at idle, and when I finish and click ok at the end, the smooth idle would go to rough idle.

I have to get ready to go out of town for the weekend so I will return to this next week and work on it.

Thank you for all the help!

[Shane J.]

Well thanks to dirtriders help I finally got my bike sorted out.

Two things had me messed up. One was that I had not reinstalled the clips that hold the throttle cables correctly, they were not snapped into the cables. Second is that I was balancing the throttle bodies at idle, as I am used to doing on the 1150 series. On this hexhead the bike controls the idle balance. Once that was sorted I then balanced at 1800rpm. Those two things, along with resetting the adaptive values did the trick and my bike is running well now. A BIG thank you to D.R., I would still be floundering without his pm help. He might better explain what I was doing wrong and how he pulled me out of a hole.

[dirtrider]

Difficult to explain the entire process as it took a fair amount of back & forth through PM to finally get a handle on it. This problem is one of those problems that would have been a LOT easier to find with hands on than through back & forth with delayed PM's. Plus it took Shane a little time to figure out how to trap & send .CSV engine data. 

 

The problem kind of boiled down to erratic operation after the throttle body balance. It would kind of run OK for a short time then go crazy again. This was also confusing as the initial throttle body balance was done right after new throttle cams were installed. (so LOTS of possibilities on the root cause)

 

Early on we addressed throttle cables being fully seated & that was corrected, then another re-balance.  Sort of helped then it went crazy again. 

 

Shane was able to trap the engine data then PM it to me ( thankfully a number of times). The data showed a number of issues with any one of those issues being capable of "causing" his runability & idle problems, and/or  being a "result" of the problem. Those issues could just as easily been a result of other factors influencing the sensors rather than an actual failed sensor or sensors. 

 

Two issues were eventually identified, with educated guessing and looking at the .CSV engine data. 

 

It sort of pointed to a throttle cable changing position in a throttle body. Part of this was Shane trying to balance the idle using the cables & part was the cables actually moving due to the retention clip issue Shane mentioned above. The GS-911 balance procedure once the steppers were locked also made finding the problem more difficult over the internet. 

 

The good news is, the last trapped .CSV data that Shane sent me (after it was properly balanced & running good again) showed that he did a very precise job of getting the throttle plates re-installed correctly & precisely.    

 

   

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Shane J.]

It's good to know that even I can properly remove and install the throttle plates. That should encourage others to replace those plastic cams.