poor running r1150 (surge/bucking)

[R65_Steve]

I'm cross posting this here as I got no traction on BMW MOA...maybe they are all still getting back from the rally?

 

I have been having an on going issue with my R1150. 55K owned since 2018 (with 27K) It started as a feeling of resistance when riding. On the highway, the twisties, etc it was like you were riding into a headwind. I did plugs, valves, cleaned electrical connections, etc. Still there. I took it to a reputable shop and the fuel filter had developed a pinhole in it. It was replaced along with the little fuel lines (straight from Germany for one of them!). The idle had been high, so that was set to normal, and the throttle bodies balanced.  I immediately noticed that there was now a dead spot when cruising. Anywhere from 3500 to 4500. Pulling the throttle harder wasn't an issue, just a gradual rise would feel like a dead spot. Of course, a yank on the grip and I'd be going faster than I wanted. Sometimes, it'd feel like a bucking sensation. I know this can be a common problem with this engine.  I took it back today and he adjusted the TPS with the GS 911. No better. Swapped in another used TPS that came with the bike. No better. (In fact I never rode it with that unit). A used one from his collection. No better. We've agreed that I'll come back when he has a known good running bike in the shop to test against mine. On the way back from the shop about 40 miles, plus a lot of stop and go traffic, it stalled out 4 times.  In the meantime here's some other facts. It's missing the pink relay for the 02 sensor (I only know this from forum reading, I assume that's what's missing). There are no jumpers in the pins of the missing relay. Bike still has the charcoal cannister. Coils were replaced a couple seasons ago, verified OK by the shop. Bike came installed with a AF-XIED (https://www.beemerboneyard.com/bmwafo2sema.html).  Huh, in creating this post, I see this on the beemerboneyard page: THE AF-XIED REQUIRES A STRONG O2 SIGNAL. IF YOUR O2 SENSOR HAS MORE THAN 50,000 MILES ON IT YOU MAY WANT TO CONSIDER BUYING A NEW O2 SENSOR WHEN INSTALLING THE AF-XIED. YOU CAN FIND THEM ON THIS PAGE FOR 1100, 1150 & K1200 MODELS I'm right at that mileage.  While I'm waiting for him to get back to me, what can I check on my own or think about replacing? I like this bike but also want a newer bike. I'm debating on how much money I want to throw at it, but it's also bordering on worthless if it doesn't run nicely.

[dirtrider]

17 minutes ago, R65_Steve said:

I'm cross posting this here as I got no traction on BMW MOA...maybe they are all still getting back from the rally?

 

I have been having an on going issue with my R1150. 55K owned since 2018 (with 27K) It started as a feeling of resistance when riding. On the highway, the twisties, etc it was like you were riding into a headwind. I did plugs, valves, cleaned electrical connections, etc. Still there. I took it to a reputable shop and the fuel filter had developed a pinhole in it. It was replaced along with the little fuel lines (straight from Germany for one of them!). The idle had been high, so that was set to normal, and the throttle bodies balanced.  I immediately noticed that there was now a dead spot when cruising. Anywhere from 3500 to 4500. Pulling the throttle harder wasn't an issue, just a gradual rise would feel like a dead spot. Of course, a yank on the grip and I'd be going faster than I wanted. Sometimes, it'd feel like a bucking sensation. I know this can be a common problem with this engine.  I took it back today and he adjusted the TPS with the GS 911. No better. Swapped in another used TPS that came with the bike. No better. (In fact I never rode it with that unit). A used one from his collection. No better. We've agreed that I'll come back when he has a known good running bike in the shop to test against mine. On the way back from the shop about 40 miles, plus a lot of stop and go traffic, it stalled out 4 times.  In the meantime here's some other facts. It's missing the pink relay for the 02 sensor (I only know this from forum reading, I assume that's what's missing). There are no jumpers in the pins of the missing relay. Bike still has the charcoal cannister. Coils were replaced a couple seasons ago, verified OK by the shop. Bike came installed with a AF-XIED (https://www.beemerboneyard.com/bmwafo2sema.html).  Huh, in creating this post, I see this on the beemerboneyard page: THE AF-XIED REQUIRES A STRONG O2 SIGNAL. IF YOUR O2 SENSOR HAS MORE THAN 50,000 MILES ON IT YOU MAY WANT TO CONSIDER BUYING A NEW O2 SENSOR WHEN INSTALLING THE AF-XIED. YOU CAN FIND THEM ON THIS PAGE FOR 1100, 1150 & K1200 MODELS I'm right at that mileage.  While I'm waiting for him to get back to me, what can I check on my own or think about replacing? I like this bike but also want a newer bike. I'm debating on how much money I want to throw at it, but it's also bordering on worthless if it doesn't run nicely.

Morning  R65_Steve

 

First try putting a proper CCP in it (or just make a jumper to simulate a proper CCP). 

 

If that doesn't help then try disconnecting the AF-XIED then ride it to see if that helps. 

 

If it still doesn't run somewhat correctly then (with  AF-XIED still disconnected) try unplugging the existing o2 sensor then ride it to see if that helps.

 

Is your 1150 a single spark or twin spark, if a twin spark then don't discount a stick coil going bad. About the only way to test for a bad stick coil is to swap in a known-good stick coil on one side then ride the motorcycle,  then it swap into the other side & ride it. You can't reliably measure the secondary & sometime they only act up under higher engine load.

 

 

[R65_Steve]

It's a twin spark.  When I had it in before, the stick coils were checked and said good.  When they did go out a couple years ago, it was super dramatic.   Would high engine load include rolling off a cruise to a slightly higher RPM?  It'll accelerate OK, that's what I consider high load.

 

What pins to connect to simulate the CCP?  I don't have any spare relays around. 

 

Ill have to look at how this AF XIED is wired in.  I didn't install this. 

[dirtrider]

6 minutes ago, R65_Steve said:

It's a twin spark.  When I had it in before, the stick coils were checked and said good.  When they did go out a couple years ago, it was super dramatic.   Would high engine load include rolling off a cruise to a slightly higher RPM?  It'll accelerate OK, that's what I consider high load.

 

What pins to connect to simulate the CCP?  I don't have any spare relays around. 

 

Ill have to look at how this AF XIED is wired in.  I didn't install this. 

Morning  R65_Steve

 

[dirtrider]

Morning  R65_Steve

 

How were the stick coils checked? As I mentioned above they are about impossible to test for how they will work under higher RPM engine load.  If your spark plugs are starting to wear the electrode gaps wider then the spark inside the stick coil will want to arc to the internal RFI shield rather than across the electrode gap under higher RPM engine load.   

 

If you can't find anything with the info  posted (way) above then you probably need to run a fuel return flow test.

 

If it passes the return fuel flow test then with that motorcycle still having an emission  Evap canister you might replace the small fine-mesh screens in the top of the fuel adjustors.  If those are plugging then it will usually idle OK but can not get enough injected fuel under higher engine load conditions.  

 

The AF-XIED usually plugs in between the o2 sensor pig tail wire connector & the main motorcycle harness. Just unplug it on both ends then connected the o2 sensor connector directly to the main motorcycle harness. 

 

Personally, I ALWAYS disconnect the AF-XIED when troubleshooting an 1150 for runability issues just to eliminate that as having an effect, or IT being the issue.  If it IS the issue then you have just found it, if it isn't the direct issue then it can be re-connected AFTER the problem is found & corrected. 

 

What I have found in the past is an 1150R with the CCP removed gives a flat spot in the mid to high RPM range under engine load (not as bad as you are experiencing) but noticeable.  Possibly the  AF-XIED can amplify that (I don't know but it needs to be disconnected until you find the root of your issue) 

[dirtrider]

Morning  R65_Steve

 

The 1150R typically uses the Golden Brown  (yellow)  CCP,  pins 30/87.

[R65_Steve]

1 hour ago, dirtrider said:

Morning  R65_Steve

 

How were the stick coils checked? As I mentioned above they are about impossible to test for how they will work under higher RPM engine load.  If your spark plugs are starting to wear the electrode gaps wider then the spark inside the stick coil will want to arc to the internal RFI shield rather than across the electrode gap under higher RPM engine load.   

 

If you can't find anything with the info  posted (way) above then you probably need to run a fuel return flow test.

 

If it passes the return fuel flow test then with that motorcycle still having an emission  Evap canister you might replace the small fine-mesh screens in the top of the fuel adjustors.  If those are plugging then it will usually idle OK but can not get enough injected fuel under higher engine load conditions.  

 

The AF-XIED usually plugs in between the o2 sensor pig tail wire connector & the main motorcycle harness. Just unplug it on both ends then connected the o2 sensor connector directly to the main motorcycle harness. 

 

Personally, I ALWAYS disconnect the AF-XIED when troubleshooting an 1150 for runability issues just to eliminate that as having an effect, or IT being the issue.  If it IS the issue then you have just found it, if it isn't the direct issue then it can be re-connected AFTER the problem is found & corrected. 

 

What I have found in the past is an 1150R with the CCP removed gives a flat spot in the mid to high RPM range under engine load (not as bad as you are experiencing) but noticeable.  Possibly the  AF-XIED can amplify that (I don't know but it needs to be disconnected until you find the root of your issue) 

 

 

Stick coils were checked and ruled out by the shop that did the swap on the fuel filter.  He installed them a couple of years ago.   Prior to sorting out the fuel filter, I swapped the coils one by one with a "known good" that was taken off when mine failed a couple of years ago.  I still had the original issue of "riding into the wind."   Sadly, this new issue of a flat spot seems to have come about after the fuel filter and lines were replaced.   TPS has been the focus yesterday, but throwing $400 at something that might not be the problem is no bueno.

 

Spark plugs are brand new after the START rally.  So maybe 1000 miles on them now. 

 

I also pulled the injectors and sprayed cleaner on them.  I will pull again tonight since the bike will be cool when I return from the office.    (I usually ride in, but with this problem and the heat this week, I'm not riding).

 

My understanding is the AF-XIED purpose is to remove the flat spot created by a lean condition and smooth everything out so amplifying it would be opposite how it's supposed to work, right?

 

What is a return fuel flow test?   (I am familiar with Bosch CIS injection from my old 911, where it literally DID return fuel to the tank....Motronic was the newer version that didn't need to do it that way.)

 

 

 

[R65_Steve]

1 hour ago, dirtrider said:

Morning  R65_Steve

 

The 1150R typically uses the Golden Brown  (yellow)  CCP,  pins 30/87.

 

 

So create a jumper from 30 to 87?  I can do that.

[dirtrider]

On 6/20/2024 at 8:31 AM, R65_Steve said:

 

 

Stick coils were checked and ruled out by the shop that did the swap on the fuel filter.  He installed them a couple of years ago.   Prior to sorting out the fuel filter, I swapped the coils one by one with a "known good" that was taken off when mine failed a couple of years ago.  I still had the original issue of "riding into the wind."   Sadly, this new issue of a flat spot seems to have come about after the fuel filter and lines were replaced.   TPS has been the focus yesterday, but throwing $400 at something that might not be the problem is no bueno.

 

Spark plugs are brand new after the START rally.  So maybe 1000 miles on them now. 

 

I also pulled the injectors and sprayed cleaner on them.  I will pull again tonight since the bike will be cool when I return from the office.    (I usually ride in, but with this problem and the heat this week, I'm not riding).

 

My understanding is the AF-XIED purpose is to remove the flat spot created by a lean condition and smooth everything out so amplifying it would be opposite how it's supposed to work, right?

 

What is a return fuel flow test?   (I am familiar with Bosch CIS injection from my old 911, where it literally DID return fuel to the tank....Motronic was the newer version that didn't need to do it that way.)

 

 

 

Morning  R65_Steve

 

I also pulled the injectors and sprayed cleaner on them.  I will pull again tonight since the bike will be cool when I return from the office.    (I usually ride in, but with this problem and the heat this week, I'm not riding). Look in the very top where the fuel line hooks in. There are (should be) some very fine mesh filter screens in there. Unfortunately they are difficult to remove without ruining them.

 

My understanding is the AF-XIED purpose is to remove the flat spot created by a lean condition and smooth everything out so amplifying it would be opposite how it's supposed to work, right?-- It should but it can't cover for a low fuel supply, low fuel pressure, a poor spark, or an exhaust restriction. 

 

What is a return fuel flow test?   (I am familiar with Bosch CIS injection from my old 911, where it literally DID return fuel to the tank....Motronic was the newer version that didn't need to do it that way.) --- 

Basically BMW fuel injected 1100/1150 boxer bikes have a built in fuel pressure/fuel flow tester--

 

Your bike has an inline fuel pressure regulator that maintains fuel pressure in the fuel manifolds. What that fuel pressure regulator does IS FORCE the fuel pump to reach about 42+psi before it will allow by-pass fuel to flow back through the return line into the fuel tank.

 

So-- IF your fuel pump is bad (low pressure output) it can't reach the required 42+psi so the pressure regulator won't open & you will have NO return fuel flowing.

 

OR-- IF your high pressure fuel lines are leaking inside the fuel tank it can't reach the required 42+psi so the pressure regulator won't open & you will have NO return fuel flowing.

 

 OR-- IF your fuel pump can't pump enough fuel quantity (low output), like restricted filter or restricted in-tank fuel line)  it can't reach the required 42+psi so the pressure regulator won't open & you will have NO return fuel flowing.

 

On the other hand (IF) you have  the engine running & a decent amount of fuel flowing back through the return fuel line that means--- your pump can meet or exceed the 42+psi system supply requirement (PLUS) supply it at a flow rate above the amount required to run the engine at idle. (actually a better test than simply using a fuel pressure gauge)

 

 

With the engine  idling & NO fuel flowing back through the return line that tells you that --Either the pump can't produce the required 42+psi, or the pump can't produce the required fuel flow (at enough pressure)  to run the engine plus supply extra fuel flow to run the engine at higher load, or there is some reason the pump can't supply enough fuel at enough pressure to properly run the engine under mid throttle load 

 

With the engine  idling & (just a little) fuel flowing back through the return line that tells you that --The pump can produce the required 42psi BUT the pump can't produce the required fuel flow at that required  42+ psi to run the engine plus supply extra fuel flow to run the engine at higher load. (will idle OK but not pull at higher engine loads)

 

 

 With the engine  idling & a good amount of fuel flowing back through the return line that tells you that --The pump CAN produce the required 42+psi, AND the pump CAN produce the required fuel flow to run the engine plus supply extra fuel flow to run the engine at higher load at higher speeds.

  

 To actually test fuel return flow you need to disconnect the fuel return hose quick disconnect, then on the fuel return hose  coming from the rear (from the pressure regulator). Hold the internal check valve open (or use another half of a quick disconnect) , then point the hose/quick disconnect into a container then start & allow the engine to idle. You want to see about a pencil sized stream of fuel coming from the rear fuel return hose. 

 

[R65_Steve]

Thanks @dirtrider.   The MOA forum lit up and advised me on pulling the canister.  So, I'll do that tonight while it's cool with the injectors. 

I think you didn't complete your thought/edit above.

[szurszewski]

11 minutes ago, R65_Steve said:

Thanks @dirtrider.   The MOA forum lit up and advised me on pulling the canister.  So, I'll do that tonight while it's cool with the injectors. 

I think you didn't complete your thought/edit above.

Are you perhaps using a dark theme to view this? I see lots of text, and what appear to be complete instructions on testing return fuel flow, but his text is very hard to read (black text on dark blue background) using a dark theme. If you're on dark, switch to any other theme and see if you are still missing something. 

[dirtrider]

17 minutes ago, R65_Steve said:

Thanks @dirtrider.   The MOA forum lit up and advised me on pulling the canister.  So, I'll do that tonight while it's cool with the injectors. 

I think you didn't complete your thought/edit above.

Morning  R65_Steve

 

It's illegal to remove the emission Evap can under Federal law so I usually don't recommend that on a public forum but it sure wouldn't hurt if it is somehow missing. 

 

On the above post I saved it part way through so I didn't lose what I had so go back & re-read as I completed it. 

 

I forgot about your TPS mention, not that it couldn't be but to me it wouldn't be at or near the top of my probability list. Once in closed loop (where you problem seems to be) the TPS has little input to the fueling as the fueling is in CLOSED LOOP  & that is fueling on the o2 sensor input almost exclusively. So unless the TPS is so bad that it is not allowing closed loop operation then that probably isn't the issue. If the TPS was bad enough to effect the closed loop fueling then it is usually also bad or worse in the other operating ranges  (like cold engine ride-away, light throttle fueling, etc.

[R65_Steve]

21 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

Morning  R65_Steve

 

It's illegal to remove the emission Evap can under Federal law so I usually don't recommend that on a public forum but it sure wouldn't hurt if it is somehow missing. 

 

On the above post I saved it part way through so I didn't lose what I had so go back & re-read as I completed it. 

 

I forgot about your TPS mention, not that it couldn't be but to me it wouldn't be at or near the top of my probability list. Once in closed loop (where you problem seems to be) the TPS has little input to the fueling as the fueling is in CLOSED LOOP  & that is fueling on the o2 sensor input almost exclusively. So unless the TPS is so bad that it is not allowing closed loop operation then that probably isn't the issue. If the TPS was bad enough to effect the closed loop fueling then it is usually also bad or worse in the other operating ranges  (like cold engine ride-away, light throttle fueling, etc.

 

 

Thanks.  I'm sure there's a lot of resources online about closed vs open loop, but do you have one you recommend?  I think I understand it, from context, but reading about it would be better.

 

Now that I've had a little time to cool off (literally in the AC as well) I feel like learning about it more and tinkering. 

[dirtrider]

41 minutes ago, R65_Steve said:

 

 

Thanks.  I'm sure there's a lot of resources online about closed vs open loop, but do you have one you recommend?  I think I understand it, from context, but reading about it would be better.

 

Now that I've had a little time to cool off (literally in the AC as well) I feel like learning about it more and tinkering. 

Afternoon R65_Steve

 

You can find lots of articles on closed loop operation just make sure that you are reading about (narrow band) closed loop as most modern closed loop is wide band that allows varying the fuel/air ratio even in closed loop.  

 

In (narrow band) closed loop the Motronic uses the o2 sensor (lambda Sensor) to read how much oxygen  is still in the exhaust then adjusts the fueling accordingly. (the o2 sensor senses the exhaust for remaining oxygen) That is typically held at about 14.7:1. 

 

The narrow band system basically toggles the fueling rich/lean/rich/lean/rich/lean across the 14.7:1 fueling window as that is about all a narrow band system is capable of, that rich/lean/rich/lean/rich/lean condition is also used to keep the catalytic converter working correctly. 

 

Closed loop is typically used for mid throttle steady state fueling, warm engine idle , warm engine light throttle with slight throttle opening changes, ___ more involved, but that is basically how it works. 

 

The BMW 1100/1150 typically runs open loop (doesn't use the o2 sensor feedback) at higher rates of throttle change, moderate to heavy acceleration, above about 3/4 throttle, at wide open throttle, under very heavy engine loadings. They also run open loop during cold engine operation after engine starting. 

 

The BMW 1100/1150 uses a 12 volt heated o2 sensor, that heating brings the o2 sensor on line earlier & keeps it in close loop at curb idle where the exhaust gas flow is not hot enough to keep the o2 sensor active. 

 

The narrow band o2 sensor (Lambda Sensor) just compares external oxygen to internal (exhaust gas) oxygen levels then produces a voltage output based on the difference. The Motronic monitors that voltage then adjusts the fuel injector injection time (pulse width) to keep the fueling to around 14.7:1  (+/-), remember it keeps toggling across that 14.7:1 fueling point. 

 

 

[R65_Steve]

5 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

Closed loop is typically used for mid throttle steady state fueling, warm engine idle , warm engine light throttle with slight throttle opening changes, more but that is basically it. 

 

The BMW 1100/1150 typically runs open loop (doesn't use the o2 sensor feedback) at higher rates of throttle change, moderate to heavy acceleration, above about 3/4 throttle, at wide open throttle, under very heavy engine loadings. They also run open loop during cold engine operation after engine starting. 

 

The BMW 1100/1150 uses a 12 volt heated o2 sensor, that heating brings the ho2 sensor on line earlier & keeps it in close loop at curb idle where the exhaust gas flow is not hot enough to keep the o2 sensor active,  

 

 

 

 

Mid throttle, steady state IS where problems seem most on this bike.    That said, the CCP is missing, so I assume it's in Open Loop all the time.  But, in my sporadic research, it seems that if the O2 sensor is out of the stock equation for this bike, it IS factored into the AF-XIED.   And maybe it's failing/old.   I don't know how long it takes to warm up, but on the way to the shop yesterday it seemed to run OK at first and I'd say after it all warmed up the problems started.   Throughout the day's testing, the problems came up almost immediately.   It's really hot here in Northern VA

[dirtrider]

On 6/20/2024 at 11:07 AM, R65_Steve said:

 

 

Mid throttle, steady state IS where problems seem most on this bike.    That said, the CCP is missing, so I assume it's in Open Loop all the time.  But, in my sporadic research, it seems that if the O2 sensor is out of the stock equation for this bike, it IS factored into the AF-XIED.   And maybe it's failing/old.   I don't know how long it takes to warm up, but on the way to the shop yesterday it seemed to run OK at first and I'd say after it all warmed up the problems started.   Throughout the day's testing, the problems came up almost immediately.   It's really hot here in Northern VA

Afternoon R65_Steve

 

Mid throttle, steady state IS where problems seem most on this bike. --- That more points to an o2 sensor issue than other things (at least that needs to be eliminated) 

 

  That said, the CCP is missing, so I assume it's in Open Loop all the time. -- NOT on the BMW 1150 Ma 2.4 system, that is true on the 1100 Ma 2.2 system but the CCP  being missing on the 1150 Ma 2.4 system still allows closed loop. 

 

But, in my sporadic research, it seems that if the O2 sensor is out of the stock equation for this bike, it IS factored into the AF-XIED.   And maybe it's failing/old.  -- The AF-XIED needs a good (properly) functioning o2 sensor to work correctly. If the o2 sensor is not working correctly the AF-XIED can't work correctly. 

 

I don't know how long it takes to warm up, but on the way to the shop yesterday it seemed to run OK at first and I'd say after it all warmed up the problems started.   Throughout the day's testing, the problems came up almost immediately. -- Engine warm-up (actually o2 sensor warm up) depends on how long the engine has been off, engine temperature, ambient temperature, Motronic programming. In warm weather it can be in closed loop in under a mile of riding, in very cold weather it can take longer. If engine was somewhat warm then it can be in closed loop in under 1/2 mile.    

 

But, if the o2 sensor is getting old & lazy it can take longer to become active. 

 

Unplug the o2 sensor (along with the  AF-XIED) then ride the motorcycle & see how it runs. If the o2 sensor is disconnected it will never go into closed loop. If it then runs better you should probably address the o2 sensor. 

[R65_Steve]

8 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

Afternoon 

 

Mid throttle, steady state IS where problems seem most on this bike. --- That more points to an o2 sensor issue than other things (at least that needs to be eliminated) 

 

  That said, the CCP is missing, so I assume it's in Open Loop all the time. -- NOT on the BMW 1150 Ma 2.4 system, that is true on the 1100 Ma 2.2 system but the CCP  being missing on the 1150 Ma 2.4 system still allows close loop. 

 

But, in my sporadic research, it seems that if the O2 sensor is out of the stock equation for this bike, it IS factored into the AF-XIED.   And maybe it's failing/old.  -- The AF-XIED needs a good (properly) functioning o2 sensor to work correctly. If the o2 sensor is not working correctly the AF-XIED can't work correctly. 

 

I don't know how long it takes to warm up, but on the way to the shop yesterday it seemed to run OK at first and I'd say after it all warmed up the problems started.   Throughout the day's testing, the problems came up almost immediately. -- Engine warm-up (actually o2 sensor warm up) depends on how long the engine has been off, engine temperature, ambient temperature, Motronic programming. In warm weather it can be in closed loop in under a mile of riding, in very cold weather it can take longer. If engine was somewhat warm then it can be in closed loop in under 1/2 mile.    

 

But, if the o2 sensor is getting old & lazy it can take longer to become active. 

 

Unplug the o2 sensor (along with the  AF-XIED) then ride the motorcycle & see how it runs. If the o2 sensor is disconnected it will never go into closed loop. If it then runs better you should probably address the o2 sensor. 

 

 

Excellent information, thanks! 

 

Lemme do some checking/testing and see what comes out of it.

 

 

[Redfoxx]

5 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Morning  R65_Steve

 

I also pulled the injectors and sprayed cleaner on them.  I will pull again tonight since the bike will be cool when I return from the office.    (I usually ride in, but with this problem and the heat this week, I'm not riding). Look in the very top where the fuel line hooks in. There are (should be) some very fine mesh filter screens in there. Unfortunately they are difficult to remove without ruining them.

 

 

 

 

 The hardest part s finding the correct  size diameter screw. my factory screens 6mm diameter, 3mm tall brass lock, and OAL 13.8mm, I ended up with a 12mm OAL screen which is universal fit. It did appear to have a couple black specs in screen. My evap system had released charcoal through out my entire fuel system.  The lines to the throttle bodies were completely solid with Charcoal.  Charcoal in fuel tank. Screens where not hard to find, injectors shops, Amazon, ebay and more. 

 

RF

[wbw6cos]

Yikes!

[R65_Steve]

3 hours ago, Redfoxx said:

 

 The hardest part s finding the correct  size diameter screw. my factory screens 6mm diameter, 3mm tall brass lock, and OAL 13.8mm, I ended up with a 12mm OAL screen which is universal fit. It did appear to have a couple black specs in screen. My evap system had released charcoal through out my entire fuel system.  The lines to the throttle bodies were completely solid with Charcoal.  Charcoal in fuel tank. Screens where not hard to find, injectors shops, Amazon, ebay and more. 

 

RF

 

 

So, are those little screens ruined?  Where did you buy new ones?  I did pull the injectors and inspect the little screens and spray with carb cleaner.  I got nothing out.   I also pulled the charcoal cannister against state and federal law (!) and it crumbled in my hands.  One line (from the tank) was disconnected when I got to it and the line to the solenoid was jam packed with charcoal.  The bits in the neck of the nipple were hard packed, so it's been jammed up a while.   So likely, there will be no improvement as the line has been plugged before the solenoid, but now the solenoid is out of the equation.  

 

Gotta wait till the sun goes down a bit to test this.

 

[Redfoxx]

52 minutes ago, R65_Steve said:

 

 

So, are those little screens ruined?  Where did you buy new ones?  I did pull the injectors and inspect the little screens and spray with carb cleaner.  I got nothing out.   I also pulled the charcoal cannister against state and federal law (!) and it crumbled in my hands.  One line (from the tank) was disconnected when I got to it and the line to the solenoid was jam packed with charcoal.  The bits in the neck of the nipple were hard packed, so it's been jammed up a while.   So likely, there will be no improvement as the line has been plugged before the solenoid, but now the solenoid is out of the equation.  

 

Gotta wait till the sun goes down a bit to test this.

 

I can definitely say yours was a worse canister. I had charcoal right down to the throttle bodies, solenoid was jammed up. I removed all hoses, selenoid and put caps throttle bodies.

 

 The screens are junk after removal.

 

After removing canister, lines and filters. I synced throttle bodies. It seem to run smoother. 

 

 I got them from Injector Rehab, I got  from their Ebay store. They were $.89 each plus shipping from web site, don't think shipping was real cheap if I remember,  ebay store was bag of 25 was $10 free shipping, just looked. Probably a life time supply. I changed so many fuel lines, filters and couplers in steps I figured for that price I would change again at some point, once I get everything up to snuff.   I bought the universals, 12mm length, since I didnt have mine out yet to measure. When I removed mine where 13.8mm so guessing 14mm length.  Ebay Description Fuel Injector Micro Filter Baskets Bulk Pack 25 Universal Bosch Marine Filters.

 

PM if you have issue finding.

 

RF

 

 

 

 

 

[R65_Steve]

30 minutes ago, Redfoxx said:

I can definitely say yours was a worse canister. I had charcoal right down to the throttle bodies, solenoid was jammed up. I removed all hoses, selenoid and put caps throttle bodies.

 

 The screens are junk after removal.

 

After removing canister, lines and filters. I synced throttle bodies. It seem to run smoother. 

 

 I got them from Injector Rehab, I got  from their Ebay store. They were $.89 each plus shipping from web site, don't think shipping was real cheap if I remember,  ebay store was bag of 25 was $10 free shipping, just looked. Probably a life time supply. I changed so many fuel lines, filters and couplers in steps I figured for that price I would change again at some point, once I get everything up to snuff.   I bought the universals, 12mm length, since I didnt have mine out yet to measure. When I removed mine where 13.8mm so guessing 14mm length.  Ebay Description Fuel Injector Micro Filter Baskets Bulk Pack 25 Universal Bosch Marine Filters.

 

PM if you have issue finding.

 

RF

 

 

 

 

Thanks. I'm going to figure mine are clean enough after I sprayed them down and nothing came out.  I chose not to cap off the @ the TBs because I like what Chris Harris said in his video, the lines stay on better.  The whole thing is capped now where the solenoid was.  I could find no bolt amongst my junk that'd fit in there, but a .357 piece of lead fit just fine.  

 

[R65_Steve]

The road test/More data... left the house and bike pulled strong and normal from my street up until the 2nd light two miles away where it died.   Backroad cruise too about 10 min of riding for the problem to come back with a vengeance.  It would buck/surge and be unpredictable.   At light where I needed to turn, I just didn't trust it with a smooth roll on of the throttle.  Yikes.  I punished myself riding it around for another 10 minutes.   Died again at the light into my neighborhood. 

 

 

Quote

I don't know how long it takes to warm up, but on the way to the shop yesterday it seemed to run OK at first and I'd say after it all warmed up the problems started.   Throughout the day's testing, the problems came up almost immediately. -- Engine warm-up (actually o2 sensor warm up) depends on how long the engine has been off, engine temperature, ambient temperature, Motronic programming. In warm weather it can be in closed loop in under a mile of riding, in very cold weather it can take longer. If engine was somewhat warm then it can be in closed loop in under 1/2 mile.    

 

But, if the o2 sensor is getting old & lazy it can take longer to become active. 

 

Unplug the o2 sensor (along with the  AF-XIED) then ride the motorcycle & see how it runs. If the o2 sensor is disconnected it will never go into closed loop. If it then runs better you should probably address the o2 sensor. 

 

 

 

It's all hot now, tomorrow, I will pull the tank and test with the O2 and AF-XIED disconnected.  

 

It all seems heat related.  

[Redfoxx]

1 hour ago, R65_Steve said:

Thanks. I'm going to figure mine are clean enough after I sprayed them down and nothing came out.  I chose not to cap off the @ the TBs because I like what Chris Harris said in his video, the lines stay on better.  The whole thing is capped now where the solenoid was.  I could find no bolt amongst my junk that'd fit in there, but a .357 piece of lead fit just fine.  

 

 

My lines had some surface cracking so eliminated them, rather replace them to go no where.  Cracking was up from the throttle bodies closer to the plastic t that splits to each throttle body.  Guessing it is hot, causing the cracking. 

[dirtrider]

11 hours ago, R65_Steve said:

 I chose not to cap off the @ the TBs because I like what Chris Harris said in his video, the lines stay on better. 

 

Morning R65_Steve

 

BMW used fuel resistant rubber vacuum caps on all BMW 1100/1150 bikes that didn't need to meet USA emission evaporation standards. The caps just need to be fuel/ozone resistant. The ones that fail are the cheap rubber caps that are not fuel or ozone resistant.

 

If you rerouted your tank vent hose to use the factory tank venting hose exiting behind the riders foot peg then make sure to cut the bottom of the hose to have a 45° angle. That 45° cut prevents sucking road water & road spray into the fuel tank as the fuel tank vents (the straight cut hose bottom is typically why the Evap canister is all rusted up inside & the carbon is ruined inside the canister). 

 

Now, with the Evap can removed that road water can get sucked directly into the fuel tank as the fuel tank vents (as the fuel is used out of it) if you don't modify the bottom of that vent hose.

[R65_Steve]

39 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

Morning R65_Steve

 

BMW used fuel resistant rubber vacuum caps on all BMW 1100/1150 bikes that didn't need to meet USA emission evaporation standards. The caps just need to be fuel/ozone resistant. The ones that fail are the cheap rubber caps that are not fuel or ozone resistant.

 

If you rerouted your tank vent hose to use the factory tank venting hose exiting behind the riders foot peg then make sure to cut the bottom of the hose to have a 45° angle. That 45° cut prevents sucking road water & road spray into the fuel tank as the fuel tank vents (the straight cut hose bottom is typically why the Evap canister is all rusted up inside & the carbon is ruined inside the canister). 

 

Now, with the Evap can removed that road water can get sucked directly into the fuel tank as the fuel tank vents (as the fuel is used out of it) if you don't modify the bottom of that vent hose.

 

 

Thanks, I just looked.   All the hoses have a bit of a bevel on them, but I can address later this evening (working from home today).   Do you really see a situation aside from riding through a lake where water is pulled up from the road into the charcoal and rusts out the canister as it did?  My thinking was that moisture from the tank went in there and rusted it out over time.

 

We have an Auto Zone store that just opened near me but those kinds of places don't usually have all the little bits that an old school shop might.  @Redfoxx mentioned his lines cracking.  I have not inspected closely for that but I probably have something in the garage that I can use to remove the lines and cap the nipples for a test ride.  I should have done a carb cleaner vacuum leak test last night, but I can try today if the disconnected O2/AF-XIED doesn't change things.   The problem coming on on so rapidly last night was odd, but seems heat related.  Maybe?

 

 

Do you have any thoughts

[Lowndes]

10 hours ago, R65_Steve said:

Thanks. I'm going to figure mine are clean enough after I sprayed them down and nothing came out.  I chose not to cap off the @ the TBs because I like what Chris Harris said in his video, the lines stay on better.  The whole thing is capped now where the solenoid was.  I could find no bolt amongst my junk that'd fit in there, but a .357 piece of lead fit just fine.  

 

R65_Steve,

 

Follow Dirtrider's instructions very carefully.  He knows more about how to diagnose and fix these bikes than anyone on this side of the sun.

 

With that said, don't get sidetracked by anything including the following minutia.  This is just an FYI in case this turns out to be part of the problem, OK??

 

You can't really clean the little injector inlet filters by just spraying some cleaner on them.  You can clean them much better by spraying in the reverse direction which can be done (youtube vids are available for that) but it is easier, positively cleaner, faster, and maybe cheaper (spray cleaner ain't cheap) to just replace them.  You might be able to find them at an auto parts store locally, or thru Injector Rehab, https://injector-rehab.com/shop/

 

I think these are the ones used in my R1100S and R1100RT, YRMV.  The postage will cost more than the filters.  

 

 

 

My filter removal tool.  Just a "sheet rock" screw in a small block of wood (as a handle):

 

More pics of the injector filters from three different bikes, some have been removed to show new vs used filters.  The filter screen is so fine you can't really see the mesh in my pics very well, but it wouldn't take much crud to restrict or completely clog these tiny filters and you need full flow for the correct air/fuel mix. .  https://photos.app.goo.gl/xW8kQgbp2tiCeQCw5

[R65_Steve]

OK, injector filters and some o-rings ordered.   Looks like an easy therapeutic project even if it turns out to not be the issue.   After 20 years, I can spend $20 on this.  :)

[dirtrider]

2 hours ago, R65_Steve said:

Do you really see a situation aside from riding through a lake where water is pulled up from the road into the charcoal and rusts out the canister as it did?  My thinking was that moisture from the tank went in there and rusted it out over time.

 

Morning Steve

 

YES!!!!  Not only me but BMW also published a service advisory to cut the hose exits to 45°.

 

It is not like the vent hose actually sucks up road water. What happens is, when riding, the engine continually uses fuel from the fuel tank, that used fuel is replaced by ambient make-up air from that "under foot peg" vent hose. 

 

With a straight bottom end on the vent hose road water hits the entire lower hose, then runs down the hose to drip off the bottom. Those droplets that form on the hose outlet can slowly get pulled up the vent hose into the Evap can (or now, with no Evap can, directly into the fuel tank). By cutting the bottom of the hose to 45° that allows the water to run all the way down to the tip of that angle & not bridge the hose bottom. 

 

If you use 4 gallons of fuel while out riding that means the fuel tank needs to take in 4 gallons of air (by volume) to replace that used fuel. 

[R65_Steve]

1 minute ago, dirtrider said:

Morning Steve

 

YES!!!! Not only me but BMW also published a service advisory to cut the hose exits to 45°.

 

It is not like the vent hose actually sucks up road water. What happens is, when riding, the engine continually uses fuel from the fuel tank, that used fuel is replaced by ambient make-up air from that under foot peg vent hose. 

 

With a straight bottom end on the vent hose road water hits the entire lower hose, then runs down the hose to drip off the bottom. Those droplets that form on the hose outlet can slowly get pulled up the vent hose into the Evap can (or now directly into the fuel tank). By cutting the bottom of the hose to 45° that allows the water to run all the way down to the tip of that angle & not bridge the hose bottom. 

 

If you use 4 gallon of fuel while out riding that means the fuel tank needs to take in 4 gallons of air (by volume) to replace that used fuel. 

 

 

Fascinating!   And totally makes sense.  I didn't think of it dripping down the hose.  Nor gave any thought to how air got into the tank to replace the fuel.  

My daughter is studying to be an engineer...I probably would have found this an interesting field had I known about it.  

[R65_Steve]

23 hours ago, R65_Steve said:

The road test/More data... left the house and bike pulled strong and normal from my street up until the 2nd light two miles away where it died.   Backroad cruise too about 10 min of riding for the problem to come back with a vengeance.  It would buck/surge and be unpredictable.   At light where I needed to turn, I just didn't trust it with a smooth roll on of the throttle.  Yikes.  I punished myself riding it around for another 10 minutes.   Died again at the light into my neighborhood. 

 

 

 

 

 

It's all hot now, tomorrow, I will pull the tank and test with the O2 and AF-XIED disconnected.  

 

It all seems heat related.  

 

 

So, test this evening....rode the same route as yesterday.  At about the same time of day.  And it seemed easily 10 degrees hotter.  In the 90s.

 

I disconnected the O2 and AF-XIED unit and left the cables danging.  Before my ride, I find that the fuel line is weeping.   If I wiped it off and tightened the clamp, it would start up again.  I ended up taking off the coupler and reseating it to get it to stop.  (I'll buy new tomorrow and correct this). 

 

The test was inconclusive.  I did have a stall at the light but after maybe 10 min of riding.   I *could not* repeat the dead spots or bucking.  Which is good.  Roll on the throttle and it rides like it used to.  I did a total of about 10-12 miles and I never had the issue.

 

The connections are in a spot I can repeat the test with the O2 and AF XIED reconnected.  I'll do this from cold tomorrow.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[R65_Steve]

(Editor got weird)

 

I called Beemer Boneyard to describe the issue and was it maybe a bad O2.  He said it might be a bad HES.  Said O2 going bad would be more gradual. So, I ordered one but the wiring doesn't look bad like some I've seen online.   So not sure if this was ever done before.

 

Will report back on tomorrow's test.  I wonder if the fuel line wasn't tight (shop took off the tank to fix filter of course) and it would leak, dribble or something else once everything got hot and nobody noticed.  But that seems Highly  implausible. 

 

It has leaked before at least stained the transmission or that's from me taking off the tank in the past. 

 

[wbw6cos]

It could be the quick connects that are leaking.   Sometimes they do not get snapped back properly with a good click, or the o-ring is damaged a little.    Also, those worm gear clamps are really not ideal for the fuel lines.  Maybe get them swapped out for the OEM types.  

 

 

 

[Redfoxx]

1 hour ago, R65_Steve said:

(Editor got weird)

 

I called Beemer Boneyard to describe the issue and was it maybe a bad O2.  He said it might be a bad HES.  Said O2 going bad would be more gradual. So, I ordered one but the wiring doesn't look bad like some I've seen online.   So not sure if this was ever done before.

 

Will report back on tomorrow's test.  I wonder if the fuel line wasn't tight (shop took off the tank to fix filter of course) and it would leak, dribble or something else once everything got hot and nobody noticed.  But that seems Highly  implausible. 

 

It has leaked before at least stained the transmission or that's from me taking off the tank in the past. 

 

on the hose connecter they make a solid band with a screw also designed for fuel injector systems. I bought the factory style crimp connectors, they are much smaller.  I also replaced the plastic couplers with both metal.

[dirtrider]

10 hours ago, R65_Steve said:

(Editor got weird)

 

I called Beemer Boneyard to describe the issue and was it maybe a bad O2.  He said it might be a bad HES.  Said O2 going bad would be more gradual. So, I ordered one but the wiring doesn't look bad like some I've seen online.   So not sure if this was ever done before.

 

Will report back on tomorrow's test.  I wonder if the fuel line wasn't tight (shop took off the tank to fix filter of course) and it would leak, dribble or something else once everything got hot and nobody noticed.  But that seems Highly  implausible. 

 

It has leaked before at least stained the transmission or that's from me taking off the tank in the past. 

 

 Morning Steve

 

Those worm screw hose clamps definitely need to be replaced as the slots dig into the hose outer covering ruining the hose & degrading the clamping force, plus they don't always clamp evenly on smaller hoses due to the worm drive mechanism.

 

If your SEEP is actually from the quick disconnect (not the hose clamping) then you can by new "O" rings for the insides. The "O" rings are easily damaged IF the 2 half's of the quick disconnect are pushed together without holding the release lever in. (it can nick the internal "O" ring if the release lever  isn't held down during reassembly. )  One sign of a nicked internal "O" ring is a seep at key off on an overnight sit but the seep goes away at next mornings key-ON at first fuel pump run. The pump pressure sort of reseats the damaged "O" ring until the pressure bleeds off again at overnight sit then it seeps again. 

 

If you get the original Oetiker full circle hose clamps you will need a special tool to PROPERLY clamp them, you can sort of do it with side cutters but that doesn't always work correctly.

 

They do make screw type high pressure hose clamps that RF talks about above.  See how it full-circles the hose with no flat worm  in the bolt area.  

 

[dirtrider]

Quote

 

I called Beemer Boneyard to describe the issue and was it maybe a bad O2.  He said it might be a bad HES.  Said O2 going bad would be more gradual. So, I ordered one but the wiring doesn't look bad like some I've seen online.   So not sure if this was ever done before.

 

Will report back on tomorrow's test.  I wonder if the fuel line wasn't tight (shop took off the tank to fix filter of course) and it would leak, dribble or something else once everything got hot and nobody noticed.  But that seems Highly  implausible. 

 

Morning Steve 

 

It really sounds more like the o2 sensor than the HES, first off, the later 1150 motorcycles had very few HES issues, second, your problem isn't acting like an HES issue would, to me the HES would be way down my list of possibilities. 

 

The o2 sensors can slowly degrade but they finally get to a point that they can act like what you are dealing with.  You need to get a good functioning o2 sensor to run an  AF-XIED without runability issues.

 

On your stalling WITHOUT the o2/ AF-XIED__  First off, when using an  AF-XIED sometimes the idle RPM needs to be turned down so possibly your idle is just set too low after the   AF-XIED was disconnected.

Secondly, I forgot to tell you to remove fuse #5 for about 30 minutes (at least 10 minutes anyhow) then do a new key-ON TPS relearn. The Motronic gets it's fueling adaptives (fueling offsets) from the o2 sensor, if your O2 sensor was failing it learns some bad adaptves.   Plus it learned it's present adaptives with the   AF-XIED working & that can also skew the learned fueling adaptives. 

 

If it keeps stalling during your test ride(s) then just put the choke on. Don't worry the choke really isn't a choke (it doesn't richen anything) on the fuel injected BMW 1100/1150 as it is ONLY a fast idle device. It's best if you can ride with the choke off as that allows the TPS voltage to drop to under .4 volts at dropped throttle but it is better than a lot of  engine stalling. 

[R65_Steve]

Thanks.  I'm pretty certain the leak/weep was from the crummy clamp with the worm drive.  In fact, when I bought the bike in 2018, I noticed leaking there and a quarter turn by the seller stopped that right up.  It's never been a problem since.  Or maybe it has and had been so slight?  Given the way the transmission is stained...    I actually found some proper (non - Oetiker) clamps in the parts stache.  I'll get some more line today (no sense in using the old) and fix this properly.  

 

Fuse #5 is pulled in the meantime and I'll do the reset procedure.  I'm debating doing a stone cold test with the O2 disconnected.  Then repeating the #5/TPS reset with the O2 connected on a now hot engine since I can get to the plugs without taking it all apart or just letting it cool again.  

 

I honestly hope it's the O2 sensor as I'd like to have a definitive failure point.   Aside from the one stall issue last night, it was quite good.  Felt like it always had.  I made a clear point of riding a 4000 rpm and rolling on the throttle slowly and there was no lag or dead spot.  

[dirtrider]

12 minutes ago, R65_Steve said:

 

I honestly hope it's the O2 sensor as I'd like to have a definitive failure point.   Aside from the one stall issue last night, it was quite good.  Felt like it always had.  I made a clear point of riding a 4000 rpm and rolling on the throttle slowly and there was no lag or dead spot.  

Morning Steve

 

That is the way I typically operate,  I never like to just guess at a failure & much prefer to test until the root of the problem is actually found (and proven).

 

That 4K then throttle up is about the range the fueling control goes from closed loop to open loop on moving throttle then then back into closed loop as the throttle position & engine RPM's stabilize.

 

If the throttle is moved slowly then it  might even be staying in closed loop on the o2 sensor input. 

 

 

[R65_Steve]

This isn't the way I typically operate, cause I'm an impatient hamfisted parts swapper.  But with the cost of parts and the fact its so hot out, I'm not missing any "prime riding" right now.  Plus, the thought of being broken down on the side of the interstate or in some backwoods where getting a tow is an "adventure I don't want to have" makes me want to get this sorted out for certain.    I have been riding this bike to work.  77 miles a day on the interstate.  The rear tire is quite worn and almost squared off, so as soon as I get it figured out, I'll "invest" in new tires.  :)

 

Off to the FLAPS for some fuel line!  

27 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

Morning Steve

If the throttle is moved slowly then it  might even be staying in closed loop on the o2 sensor input. 

 

 

 

 

As hamfisted as I am with a wrench I'm pretty subtle on the controls.  I guess I get that from when I would do high performance driving.  There is such a connection to the machine, probably why these threads are so abundant, I wish I could explain this to non-riders.     Or even my kids... "hey dad, the yellow light was on, I ignored it...."  

[Jim Moore]

I've been following this thread with great interest. I feel like I've missed something here. What happened when you rode it with the O2 sensor disconnected?

[dirtrider]

On 6/22/2024 at 5:24 PM, Jim Moore said:

I've been following this thread with great interest. I feel like I've missed something here. What happened when you rode it with the O2 sensor disconnected?

Evening Jim

 

Read a few posts up_____    https://www.bmwsporttouring.com/topic/109513-poor-running-r1150-surgebucking/?do=findComment&comment=1175668   ______

 

 

It wasn't just the o2 sensor disconnect as the AF-XIED gets disconnected (deactivated) at the same time as the  AF-XIED won't work correctly without a proper functioning o2 sensor.

[R65_Steve]

30 minutes ago, Jim Moore said:

I've been following this thread with great interest. I feel like I've missed something here. What happened when you rode it with the O2 sensor disconnected?

 

It ran better with it disconnected but as @dirtrider said, the learn wasn't unlearned.  It is now.  Just waiting till it's cooler tonight (weather).  I'll ride without O2 first and then hook it back up and repeat the test.  I figure it'll be nice and warm so if that's the issue should be immediate.

[R65_Steve]

After I got the new fuel lines fitted, I took it for a test ride with the O2 sensor disconnected.  Ran as well as last night.   Nice and smooth acceleration off a cruising throttle.

 

Came home and pulled fuse #5, hooked the O2 and AF XIED back up.  Second test ride.  Got a couple miles away on the same loop.  Everything seemed fine.  I chalked it up to the weepy fuel line....and then....it all started again!  Crap acceleration off a cruising throttle and then a lurch forward I guess as the AF XIED over corrected for it.   Rarely have I been so happy to have a problem while riding!

 

I guess I could have stopped and disconnected it all again for the last 2 miles, but I wasnt carrying tools. 

 

So I guess the next step is to order a new O2 sensor.

[Jim Moore]

I've ridden a lot of moles on oilheads with the O2 sensor simply disconnected.

[R65_Steve]

1 hour ago, Jim Moore said:

I've ridden a lot of moles on oilheads with the O2 sensor simply disconnected.

Thanks.  Is there some disadvantage to this?  Lower mileage? 

 

Poor emissions I'm sure, but that's probably already there with the CCP removed and the cannister deleted.

[dirtrider]

On 6/23/2024 at 7:02 AM, R65_Steve said:

Thanks.  Is there some disadvantage to this?  Lower mileage? 

 

Poor emissions I'm sure, but that's probably already there with the CCP removed and the cannister deleted.

Morning Steve 

 

The are a couple of disadvantages to eliminating the o2 sensor on the 1150 bikes (especially the later 1150 bikes).

 

The first is, you will lose the ability to use your AF XIED as the AF XIED won't function correctly without a good working o2 sensor.

 

Without a proper functioning o2 sensor it will run in open loop, the 1150 Ma 2.4 engines run better with a functioning o2 sensor as the Ma 2.4 system learns fueling adaptives from the o2 sensor.  

 

It will run & be ridable without a functioning o2 sensor but you will probably have flat spot at mid throttle-up under acceleration load. The open loop mapping on the 1150  Ma 2.4 system was not the best as it was calibrated to protect the catalytic converter.

 

You can definitely ride it that way for while but for long term you probably want a functioning o2 sensor. 

 

 

[R65_Steve]

Thanks all. 

 

I've learned a lot here.   Added to what I knew about Motronic, but this puts it all into practice, from only theory before.

[dirtrider]

10 hours ago, R65_Steve said:

After I got the new fuel lines fitted, I took it for a test ride with the O2 sensor disconnected.  Ran as well as last night.   Nice and smooth acceleration off a cruising throttle.

 

Came home and pulled fuse #5, hooked the O2 and AF XIED back up.  Second test ride.  Got a couple miles away on the same loop.  Everything seemed fine.  I chalked it up to the weepy fuel line....and then....it all started again!  Crap acceleration off a cruising throttle and then a lurch forward I guess as the AF XIED over corrected for it.   Rarely have I been so happy to have a problem while riding!

 

I guess I could have stopped and disconnected it all again for the last 2 miles, but I wasnt carrying tools. 

 

So I guess the next step is to order a new O2 sensor.

Morning Steve

I'm not sure if you (we) have done this for a major test ride period but you might try reconnecting the o2 sensor WITHOUT the AF XIED. You really want to cover all bases & eliminate all possibilities so you need to evaluate the possibility of the AF XIED being the cause of your issue. 

 

When it comes to a new o2 sensor the OEM BMW o2 sensor with a factory length pig tail will cost you an arm & a left nut. A few aftermarket universal o2 sensors will work just fine & are a LOT cheaper.

 

Just, DO NOT solder the wires when adding a universal o2 sensor to your factory pig tail. The o2 sensor gets it's reference air down through the wires so soldering the wire connections prevents the ambient air from reaching the o2 sensor. A lot of Univeral o2 sensors come with a splice box but those things are big & I'm not sure how good the sealing is long term. Personally I usually use heat sealing ABS sensor butt connectors or use (unsoldered) splice clips with a non-gooey heat shrink over the splice clip.

 

Another thing to keep in mind on universal o2 sensors is the  wire colors are typically the same BUT actual circuits are not, SO match actual circuits not wire the colors.  

 

A good place to look for an o2 sensor is Euro motoelectrics.       https://www.euromotoelectrics.com/

https://www.euromotoelectrics.com/category-s/1733.htm

[R65_Steve]

9 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

Morning Steve

 

I'm not sure if you (we) have done this for a major test ride period but you might try reconnecting the o2 sensor WITHOUT the AF XIED. You really want to cover all bases & eliminate all possibilities so you need to evaluate the possibility of the AF XIED being the cause of your issue. 

 

When it comes to a new o2 sensor the OEM BMW o2 sensor with a factory length pig tail will cost you an arm & a left nut. A few aftermarket universal o2 sensors will work just fine & are a LOT cheaper. 

 

Just, DO NOT solder the wires when adding a universal o2 sensor to you factory pig tail. The o2 sensor gets it's reference air down through the wires so soldering the wire connections prevents the ambient air from reaching the o2 sensor. 

 

A good place to look for an o2 sensor is Euromotoelectric.

 

 

Yes, I should test that as well.  Looks like beemerboneyard also has one for $80 and EME for about $100.

 

Why's some of this (TPS anyone?) need to be so expensive.

Don't need a left nut to ride, but do need both arms! 

[dirtrider]

4 minutes ago, R65_Steve said:

 

 

Yes, I should test that as well.  Looks like beemerboneyard also has one for $80 and EME for about $100.

 

Why's some of this (TPS anyone?) need to be so expensive.

Don't need a left nut to ride, but do need both arms! 

Morning Steve

 

It's all in the name  B___M___W     =   Bring More Wampum .

 

A universal will work just fine (if you scroll down to near the bottom on the EME web page it has a link to the installation .pdf)