poor running r1150 (surge/bucking)

[R65_Steve]

Actually to add to this, apparently the AF XIED has a new tech bulletin to ground out one of the lines from the O2 for better performance.  I'll find on my other PC and link later.

[Jim Moore]

2 hours ago, R65_Steve said:

Thanks.  Is there some disadvantage to this?  Lower mileage? 

 

Poor emissions I'm sure, but that's probably already there with the CCP removed and the cannister deleted.

I found that I lost a few mpg if I was going a lot of in- town riding. Out on the road there was no difference.

[dirtrider]

2 hours ago, R65_Steve said:

Poor emissions I'm sure, but that's probably already there with the CCP removed and the cannister deleted.

Afternoon Steve 

 

Be sure that you get the correct CCP back in that motorcycle if you are going to run the AF XIED.

 

Also, make sure that you & Jim are talking about the same motorcycle as the 1150 single spark & the later 1150 twin spark have different Motronic calibrations.

 

 

[taylor1]

I pulled the o2 and the ccp @ 60,000 miles ago when I installed a Laser power chip. I pulled because that was what the Laser tech told me to do, but that is still open for debate on a different thread in which at some point, I am going to reinstall to see what the difference is, if any.  From what I've read from others my millage is awfully close to what they get, and it absolutely got rid of the little surge it had before. Bike has always run really great with no problems. It is a single spark

[R65_Steve]

2 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Afternoon Steve 

 

Be sure that you get the correct CCP back in that motorcycle if you are going to run the AF XIED.

 

Also, make sure that you & Jim are talking about the same motorcycle as the 1150 single spark & the later 1150 twin spark have different Motronic calibrations.

 

 

Which is the correct one?  The jumper you mentioned many many posts above?    This never came to me with anything installed. 

Yes, @Jim Moore mine is a dual spark.  

 

 

[R65_Steve]

4 hours ago, R65_Steve said:

Actually to add to this, apparently the AF XIED has a new tech bulletin to ground out one of the lines from the O2 for better performance.  I'll find on my other PC and link later.

 

 

Here it is:  

[dirtrider]

On 6/23/2024 at 12:44 PM, R65_Steve said:

 

 

Which is the correct one?  The jumper you mentioned many many posts above?    This never came to me with anything installed. 

Yes, @Jim Moore mine is a dual spark.  

 

 

Afternoon Steve

 

That is an 1150R (not an RT correct)? It makes a difference. 

 

I Think I looked it up & posted it in the earlier part of this thread  but my basic CCP usage chart shows a yellow CCP. (BMW calls it a Golden Brown) 

 

If you PM me the last 7 digits of your VIN (don't post it in public here) I will look it up for your specific motorcycle. 

[dirtrider]

2 hours ago, R65_Steve said:

 

 

Here it is:  

Afternoon Steve

 

Probably not a bad idea as the low (ground path) on the older BMW 1100/1150 bikes can gain some resistance as they get older. 

 

We have had to add a separate direct to battery (-) post  low (ground) wire to some of the older BMW 1100/1150rt's to get the fuel gauge to read accurately due to ground path resistance.  

 

 

[King Herald]

1 hour ago, dirtrider said:

Afternoon Steve

 

Probably not a bad idea as the low (ground path) on the older BMW 1100/1150 bikes can gain some resistance as they get older. 

 

We have had to add a separate (direct to battery (-) post  low (ground) wire to the older BMW 1100/1150 rt's to get the fuel gauge to read accurately due to ground path resistance.  

 

 

When I was trying to cure the turn signal double speed flashing problem I went through the whole loom checking any and all connections I could. I found one ground wire screwed to the side of the Motronic frame, but there was paint under the connector. It had been drilled and tapped, but the surface left uncleaned. Which I found a bit odd.

 

I ground the paint off, reattached the brown wire, but it made no difference to my turn signal speed. At least I know it’s done properly now. 

 

I eventually cured the turn signal problem by cutting that trace on the flasher circuit board.

[R65_Steve]

On 6/21/2024 at 9:02 PM, wbw6cos said:

It could be the quick connects that are leaking.   Sometimes they do not get snapped back properly with a good click, or the o-ring is damaged a little.    Also, those worm gear clamps are really not ideal for the fuel lines.  Maybe get them swapped out for the OEM types.  

 

 

 

 

 

Walked out in the garage.  Smelled gas.  Even after swapping the clamps. 

The little O-ring IS damaged.   Must be wicking down the metal where I couldn't see it into the hose, where I could.

I had some O-rings in the garage, I could not get the disconnect to seat using that O-ring.  These are metric from the FLAPS.  I assume this is a metric O-ring.  I'll either try again or order from BB.  Arg.

[dirtrider]

26 minutes ago, R65_Steve said:

 

 

Walked out in the garage.  Smelled gas.  Even after swapping the clamps. 

The little O-ring IS damaged.   Must be wicking down the metal where I couldn't see it into the hose, where I could.

I had some O-rings in the garage, I could not get the disconnect to seat using that O-ring.  These are metric from the FLAPS.  I assume this is a metric O-ring.  I'll either try again or order from BB.  Arg.

Afternoon Steve 

 

If you have enough of the removed "O" ring just take it to a local auto parts store & match it up. Put the "O" ring out in the hot sun for a while as that will shrink it to it's original size.

[R65_Steve]

1 hour ago, dirtrider said:

Afternoon Steve 

 

If you have enough of the removed "O" ring just take it to a local auto parts store & match it up. Put the "O" ring out in the hot sun for a while as that will shrink it to it's original size.

 

 

Yeah I matched it up with something from my kit but it wouldn't go back together.  I can certainly try again, I have a whole bunch of them.

[R65_Steve]

Nice thing about this hot weather and a consistent test loop is that I can guess where things will show up.  I tested with just the O2 sensor attached and about the usual spot, I started feeling the dead spot again under cruising throttle.  Not as pronounced when the AF XIED unit was connected last night but still felt it.  So don't know if that unit amplified the problem as hypothesized above.

 

I stopped at the high school and unhooked it and did part of the test lap again.  It was pretty much like ru nkng without.  I hadn't pulled the fuse so don't know if that had an effect. 

 

I think I'll just order a new O2 and install the jumper as recommended.

 

I'll report back later in the week when all this shows up and I get to it.

 

Thanks all.

[dirtrider]

On 6/23/2024 at 6:07 PM, R65_Steve said:

Nice thing about this hot weather and a consistent test loop is that I can guess where things will show up.  I tested with just the O2 sensor attached and about the usual spot, I started feeling the dead spot again under cruising throttle.  Not as pronounced when the AF XIED unit was connected last night but still felt it.  So don't know if that unit amplified the problem as hypothesized above.

 

I stopped at the high school and unhooked it and did part of the test lap again.  It was pretty much like ru nkng without.  I hadn't pulled the fuse so don't know if that had an effect. 

 

I think I'll just order a new O2 and install the jumper as recommended.

 

I'll report back later in the week when all this shows up and I get to it.

 

Thanks all.

Morning Steve

 

When you install the new o2 sensor (and the AF XIED harness)  be sure to route the o2 sensor pig tail away from the R/H lower spark plug wire. Do not route it along, across,  or close to, the R/H lower spark plug wire as cross talk can cause runability & idle issues.  (there is a BMW bulletin on the o2 sensor re-routing) 

 

The factory routing had some issues. 

[R65_Steve]

On 6/24/2024 at 7:56 AM, dirtrider said:

Morning Steve

 

When you install the new o2 sensor (and the AF XIED harness)  be sure to route the o2 sensor pig tail away from the R/H lower spark plug wire. Do not route it along, across,  or close to, the R/H lower spark plug wire as cross talk can cause runability & idle issues.  (there is a BMW bulletin on the o2 sensor re-routing) 

 

The factory routing had some issues. 

 

 

Where should it be routed or how far away?  Mine was in the factory location.

 

New o rings came too and let the hose snap right together.  Will have to compare to my metric kit from the FLAPS.

 

[dirtrider]

12 hours ago, R65_Steve said:

 

 

Where should it be routed or how far away?  Mine was in the factory location.

 

New o rings came too and let the hose snap right together.  Will have to compare to my metric kit from the FLAPS.

 

Morning Steve

 

There is a BMW service bulletin on how to reroute that o2 pigtail but it is VERY CONFUSING, the factory routing is not to be used as that caused some problems for some riders. Mainly an erratic idle problem along with a stalling problem. 

 

Just get the o2 sensor pig tail wire away from the lower spark plug wire as best you can  & zip tie it to stay away. 

 

 

[R65_Steve]

Well....I finally got back to this.  Installed the new O2 sensor.  Kept it away from the spark plug wire.   Took it for a test ride.  It's much cooler today.

 

Bike runs fine until it's warmed up.  The issue came back.  

 

I didn't get around to the injector screens.  I'll do it tomorrow.  I didn't install the HES since I didn't think that's what it was based on this thread.  Could it be?

 

I'm super disappointed since I don't KNOW what the issue is.  I can also test again with the AF XIED out of the mix. 

 

(New HES is one part ...one long wire.  The one on the bike the wiring looks good by the plug (I know I can't see anything else of course) but it's a two part plug. .see screwdriver.  Is this maybe original?)

 

 

[R65_Steve]

What else could it possibly be?  Fuel pump?

[dirtrider]

10 hours ago, R65_Steve said:

What else could it possibly be?  Fuel pump?

Morning Steve

 

Is the AF XIED still in the system? If so disconnect that then test ride it again. You need that motorcycle bone stock until the problem is found  

 

Your problem is becoming more difficult to isolate working over the internet.

 

It had (still has) a lot of ear marks of the o2 being involved but other things sure could be involved. 

 

It doesn't sound like the HES, but you can't absolutely rule it out. 

 

It doesn't exactly point to a bad (or misadjusted) TPS, but again you can't rule it out. 

 

It does "sort of" point to a possible fuel flow issue but the working OK cold then acting up hot kind of complicates diagnosing that without monitoring fuel pressure & fuel flow while actually riding. There are some odd-ball things that could be effecting fuel flow that are somewhat difficult to find without monitoring the fuel flow & fuel pressure.

   Things like the fuel pump impeller slipping on the motor shaft when hot, or a minor pin hole in an internal high pressure line that only leaks enough to lower fuel pressure when the fuel is hot, or a voltage (or ground) issue feeding the fuel pump that only acts up hot, or the screens in the fuel injector inlets that just restrict just enough to effect the leaner running areas operating on the o2 sensor.   (most are real long shots but can't be ruled out until proven out)

 

Something like the Motronic (fueling electronics) acting up when hot also can't be completely ruled out, difficult to prove out without a Known Good Motronic to swap in to test  operation. 

 

It could even be an upper coil (or coils) causing your issue either from an actual coil problem or from a low voltage to the upper coils (I'm not sure on your (R) bike but BMW added a 2nd load relief relay to the later 1150 twin spark engine RT's to increase upper coil voltage & take some voltage dropping load off of the fuel injector circuit. You might end up running (riding) with a voltmeter hooked to the upper coils or fuel injector 12v side circuit to verify that it is maintaining enough voltage when hot & the problem is happening. Sometimes it even takes swapping in Known Good upper coils in to see if the problem goes away as there is no good way to prove out the secondary side of a BMW stick coil. 

 

But start by disconnecting the AF XIED if that is still connected (this is a must), 

 

If it still acts  up then disconnect the new o2 sensor then test ride again (THIS MOVE will help us determine what to look next)!

 

 

 

[R65_Steve]

Thanks.  I appreciate you sticking with me on this.  I'm OK with swapping parts, but diagnosis is not my strength. 

When I work on something and something doesn't work later, it's usually the last thing I touched and didn't install right or left  loose or something.   (Talk to me about knocking the fuel line ever so loose on my 1100GS when I had it on a trailer.)

 

The shop that did the work talked about a laundry list of things it *could* be but I think we were still focused on the TPS at the time and waiting for a working bike to show up in his shop.    He did say a fuel pump could be on the way out, and had I done that work myself, I would start there and check all my connections.   In my world, I could see the fuel pump taking a dive after being moved during a filter swap.  But that wouldn't explain the initiating problem.   I've done some wide google searches and what I describe seems to link to fuel and not electronics (at least nothing observable on the tach).   Several folks have found a cut in the U hose in the tank.  Certainly could have been a bum hose.

 

Anyhow, I will clean the screens after work and retest with the 02 only and see what's up. 

 

I'm a little annoyed at the shop because when I described the issue, it might have been partially dismissed as "normal 1150 flat spot/surging problems" but this gets to an unrideable condition.  

[R65_Steve]

Well.  Disconnected the AF devices and hooked up the O2.  Replaced the injector screens.  They look like the ones posted above.   Dirty, or just that color?

 

Put a gallon in the tank and then rode 30 miles till the reserve came back on. 

 

Did many miles of coasting throttle.  Not enough to accelerate and not too little to feel the bike sag forward.  You all know what I mean. 

 

Seemed to exhibit No Issues.  It seemd to perform like usual/used to.  I could always feel what I thought was driveline Slack take up but not the "riding into the wind/dead spot/insane surging take off" I had previously. 

 

Its supposed to be hot tomorrow, I'll test it again under hotter conditions.

[Redfoxx]

3 hours ago, R65_Steve said:

Well.  Disconnected the AF devices and hooked up the O2.  Replaced the injector screens.  They look like the ones posted above.   Dirty, or just that color?

 

Put a gallon in the tank and then rode 30 miles till the reserve came back on. 

 

Did many miles of coasting throttle.  Not enough to accelerate and not too little to feel the bike sag forward.  You all know what I mean. 

 

Seemed to exhibit No Issues.  It seemd to perform like usual/used to.  I could always feel what I thought was driveline Slack take up but not the "riding into the wind/dead spot/insane surging take off" I had previously. 

 

Its supposed to be hot tomorrow, I'll test it again under hotter conditions.

Mine came out same color, guessing they all go in white and change with time and fuel. I looked at mine with magnifying glass and looked like there was some small debris in them.  I had charcoal through out my entire fuel system.

 

I know you talked changing lines in fuel tank, what clamps did you use and does yours have a U hose in there, did you replace and what kind of U hose you put in. 

 

RF

[dirtrider]

11 hours ago, R65_Steve said:

Well.  Disconnected the AF devices and hooked up the O2.  Replaced the injector screens.  They look like the ones posted above.   Dirty, or just that color?

 

Put a gallon in the tank and then rode 30 miles till the reserve came back on. 

 

Did many miles of coasting throttle.  Not enough to accelerate and not too little to feel the bike sag forward.  You all know what I mean. 

 

Seemed to exhibit No Issues.  It seemd to perform like usual/used to.  I could always feel what I thought was driveline Slack take up but not the "riding into the wind/dead spot/insane surging take off" I had previously. 

 

Its supposed to be hot tomorrow, I'll test it again under hotter conditions.

Morning Steve

 

You just broke the number 1 rule of troubleshooting, you changed more than one thing at a time. Not the end of the world but now you are guessing at which one made the difference. 

 

On those injector filters, I usually push the filter brass ring into a 3"-4" piece of hose , then dip (just) the filter into some gasoline (don't use water), then blow into the hose. If the filter is restricted that will usually show it. You can try it first with just mouth air but sometimes it takes the thicker fuel to wet the carbon to more resist the mouth air flow. 

 

When it comes to that fine carbon in the fuel system, it can plug off those fine mesh filters & not really look like it.

 

Ride it for a while until you are sure your mid throttle sag is gone, if so then reconnect the AF XIED, then re-ride it for a few days. 

[R65_Steve]

1 hour ago, dirtrider said:

Morning Steve

 

You just broke the number 1 rule of troubleshooting, you changed more than one thing at a time. Not the end of the world but now you are guessing at which one made the difference. 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, I know and I meant to do this before, but forgot the parts arrived.    The dirty filters are still on the workbench so I'll see if I have some fuel line to test that.

 

As i was riding, I was thinking....the bike came with the AF-XIED, a spare TPS, a fuel filter and some other maintenance stuff.  A few print outs about the TPS as well.   Idle had always been turned up to around 1500.  I wonder if the PO had some issues he didn't like, turned up the wick to cover for them and ultimately sold the bike.   I didn't know any better and only upon a more experienced person working on the bike (resetting the idle) and a lot of miles does this now show up.   With some holiday time off, I can add some miles to this and see how it goes. 

[R65_Steve]

7 hours ago, Redfoxx said:

Mine came out same color, guessing they all go in white and change with time and fuel. I looked at mine with magnifying glass and looked like there was some small debris in them.  I had charcoal through out my entire fuel system.

 

I know you talked changing lines in fuel tank, what clamps did you use and does yours have a U hose in there, did you replace and what kind of U hose you put in. 

 

RF

 

The shop did the work inside the tank.  I don't know what sort of clamps were used.  I could check the invoice, but I know it was the official BMW hoses - they were expensive!!

I'll pull out my jeweler's loupe.

[Redfoxx]

5 hours ago, R65_Steve said:

 

The shop did the work inside the tank.  I don't know what sort of clamps were used.  I could check the invoice, but I know it was the official BMW hoses - they were expensive!!

I'll pull out my jeweler's loupe.

 

I didnt know know if the world knew loupe, I did not check to see if red color is staining or build up on mesh.

 

RF

[R65_Steve]

2 hours ago, Redfoxx said:

 

I didnt know know if the world knew loupe, I did not check to see if red color is staining or build up on mesh.

 

RF

 

 

It *appears* under 10X power to be staining.   After 20 years I can't blame it. 

Jeweler's loupe is a neat tool.   That watch you think is well made by tiny Swiss elves?  They  cut corners!

 

[Redfoxx]

7 hours ago, R65_Steve said:

 

 

It *appears* under 10X power to be staining.   After 20 years I can't blame it. 

Jeweler's loupe is a neat tool.   That watch you think is well made by tiny Swiss elves?  They  cut corners!

 

Tag Hauer and Tissot,  have not seen Japan or China in them:-)

 

The Work never ends, washed my RT and found 4 fairing screws and washers missing. Guess I will be getting more. I think my extras are gone already. 

 

[R65_Steve]

OK, a  follow up, since nobody likes a thread where the problem isn't resolved.  Been really hot.  Family vacation, etc. 

Since the bike was running OK with the new O2 sensor, I just left it that way.  Made sure the jumper was in as @dirtrider instructed.  Cleared the Motronic, etc.

***completely bypassed the AF XIED unit, but didn't disconnect it***. 

 

Several test rides in warm weather and the bike operates pretty much as it used to.   Took a nice 80 mile ride which included new rubber.  Bike is "predictable" and I can "ride with confidence".   None of that crack the throttle, wait 2 seconds and then it rockets off.  

 

So, I'm just going to ride it a bunch and enjoy it.    See you all at FART.

 

BTW, tires went up in price.  Bought the same exact tires in 2022...now the front was $25 more and the rear $37 more!!