Ah, oh...an oil question!!

[Stiggy]

1 hour ago, Jimmers said:

Thanks Stiggy...good info there.  Please let me see the results of the Rotella.  Have you ever tested a  heavier weight oil like 15w50 Liquid-Moly?

Living here in NC (where we've already seen a couple of 100 degree days,) I see the benefit but I'd be concerned with the newer narrower oil passages and closer manufacturing tolerances.

Clearly from my Blackstone, the 5W-40 wasn't a '40' in just 4,000 miles, (Now if I could find me a JASO MA2 10w-50 (???))

 

No I would not run 15W-50 in either my R1200RT ('17) or my K1600 ('18)

[Jimmers]

15 minutes ago, Stiggy said:

Living here in NC (where we've already seen a couple of 100 degree days,) I see the benefit but I'd be concerned with the newer narrower oil passages and closer manufacturing tolerances.

Clearly from my Blackstone, the 5W-40 wasn't a '40' in just 4,000 miles, (Now if I could find me a JASO MA2 10w-50 (???))

 

No I would not run 15W-50 in either my R1200RT ('17) or my K1600 ('18)

Maybe this??? 

[dirtrider]

13 minutes ago, Stiggy said:

(Now if I could find me a JASO MA2 10w-50 (???))

 

 

Morning  Stiggy

 

You might look into Castrol Power 1, that is a JASO MA2 10w-50 API SL.

 

Usually the greater the distance between the high & low number the easier that is shears but I have been running that Castrol Power 1, JASO MA2 10w-50 in my BWW 800 for a long time now & the viscosity shear resistance is darn good. 

[Jimmers]

Oops...maybe this???

 

https://www.amazon.com/Liqui-Moly-20068-Motorbike-Synthetic/dp/B00D91Q1AU/ref=sr_1_3?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.gF5BUwJcFOwR2DHTW6AsKZ6P8yoHQlOwfhuh3qEkNzB-xptT0vz6vJtgd_isnaeksxYzQnErXpcgCGoPDwWPGtCPVXEPphTWmiEbnRMK77qk-pxxd_OyFrwndfiNQpsrxPXQwtm_KXILT1TM6zHhmzGPo-URH-ujDJFqyvB6dPpLgP7D67gCBcBbIza4FS_hSB7XnlwwIJNHRCJLv5iu2gZFwomcfGukzL1xW7bdapWoNVdXdf7B6c978K2DIhtGCTiagxlgRcfe71gPx9-Le1dnKWd6fgoV5ElivbglMWE.hx3HkP7qNBouHclIE54DfXprwy4iUhHImrGzKiv8-Nc&dib_tag=se&keywords=liquid-moly+10w50&qid=1720015862&sr=8-3

[Stiggy]

Morning,

Either of the above 

 

I've run Castrol 5W-40 without issue in cooler weather and that Blackstone report just came in yesterday so perhaps down here in the south I've found my '9 month' oil. 10W-50 Castrol vs Liqui Moly (+ $5) Either should work.

I'll know in about 4,000 miles :)

 

Thanks guys!

[Dave_in_TX]

With over a half million miles spread over five BMWs (my current 2023 R1250GS has 42k), I change at the recommended 6k interval and have yet to have an oil related problem.

[Dave_in_TX]

6 minutes ago, Stiggy said:

Morning,

Either of the above 

 

I've run Castrol 5W-40 without issue in cooler weather and that Blackstone report just came in yesterday so perhaps down here in the south I've found my '9 month' oil. 10W-50 Castrol vs Liqui Moly (+ $5) Either should work.

I'll know in about 4,000 miles :)

 

Thanks guys!

Why Liqui Moly 10w50 instead of Liqui Moly 5w40? I use 5w40 year round in Central Texas with no problem.

[Stiggy]

1 minute ago, Dave_in_TX said:

Why Liqui Moly 10w50 instead of Liqui Moly 5w40? I use 5w40 year round in Central Texas with no problem.

 

I would have thought the same thing until my Blackstone lab report came in yesterday (Please see  attachment above about 8 or 10 posts back)

Apparently, even at a 4,000 mile oil change and plenty of additives left, the oil wasn't a 5W-40 anymore. I thought I might 'cushion' that the next oil change.

[Rougarou]

7 minutes ago, Stiggy said:

 

I would have thought the same thing until my Blackstone lab report came in yesterday (Please see  attachment above about 8 or 10 posts back)

Apparently, even at a 4,000 mile oil change and plenty of additives left, the oil wasn't a 5W-40 anymore. I thought I might 'cushion' that the next oil change.

 

Your Blackstone report was a different brand of oil.  Results of Ultra 1 Plus oil may be different than the results of Liquid Moly, I dunno

[TSConver]

4 hours ago, Stiggy said:

To add to the mix, my test run of Ultra 1 Plus oil came back yesterday. I am glad that I pulled it at 4,000 miles.

 

Onto Rotella, as I sure would like a 6,000 mile oil change cycle.

 

 

Blackstone Ultra 2.1.pdf 30.05 kB · 11 downloads

 

Wondering if you use the quickshifter or the clutch for shifting?  A lot of clutch use would lead to more shear.

[Stiggy]

4 minutes ago, TSConver said:

 

Wondering if you use the quickshifter or the clutch for shifting?  A lot of clutch use would lead to more shear.

Guilty, but mostly on downshifts (gentle rider,) but I considered the same thing.

[Stiggy]

13 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

 

Your Blackstone report was a different brand of oil.  Results of Ultra 1 Plus oil may be different than the results of Liquid Moly, I dunno

Agreed, but the lab report noted that most oils that they test degrade in a similar fashion.

 

I was looking for the 6,000 service oil (which is why I sent the sample at 4,000.) From what I read, the lab likes shorter 4,000 mile oil changes. I don't, but will begrudgingly comply this time with what's in the crankcase.

 

That said, all my previous changes have been at 6,000 and I;ve experienced no issues with that schedule either. I've just gone down the oil analysis rabbit hole apparently :)

[Rougarou]

32 minutes ago, Stiggy said:

Agreed, but the lab report noted that most oils that they test degrade in a similar fashion.

 

I was looking for the 6,000 service oil (which is why I sent the sample at 4,000.) From what I read, the lab likes shorter 4,000 mile oil changes. I don't, but will begrudgingly comply this time with what's in the crankcase.

 

That said, all my previous changes have been at 6,000 and I;ve experienced no issues with that schedule either. I've just gone down the oil analysis rabbit hole apparently :)

 

I've got over 140k on my RT, oil changes have been under 6k to over 10k, engine runs just fine.

 

Overthinking can cause issues

[Dave_in_TX]

6 hours ago, Stiggy said:

Agreed, but the lab report noted that most oils that they test degrade in a similar fashion.

 

I think the manufactures take that into consideration when determining oil choices and change interval.

[Jimmers]

Manufacturer's change their minds all the time...at least from my years with Harley-Davidson use.  Not that familiar with BMW, but another thought comes to mind.  What is the average summer and winter temps in Germany?  Would bet thay are a lot cooler that in Texas. 

 

Harley changed their mind on oil types and weights several times in the engine, primary and transmission.  I "think", at least I've read somewhere that BMW changed their mind on engine/wet clutch oil even recently in the K models.  Of course K models are different engine types than the wetheads, but I believe they have wet clutches.

[Rougarou]

3 minutes ago, Jimmers said:

What is the average summer and winter temps in Germany?  Would bet thay are a lot cooler that in Texas. 

Not that I follow manufacturers guidance, but what does the temp comparison of Germany and Texas have to do with anything?  
 

Do you think their engineering staff only consider the climate of Muchen?

 

I belief that BMW bikes are on almost all continents and many have circumnavigated the world hitting the very extremes of temps. 
 

Put the whatever oil in your bike, give it a go. I get some hits because I use diesel oil, but my miles are evidence that its doing just fine in all the bikes ive used it, HP4, RT and GSA since 600 mile service. 

[Jimmers]

4 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

Not that I follow manufacturers guidance, but what does the temp comparison of Germany and Texas have to do with anything?  
 

Do you think their engineering staff only consider the climate of Muchen?

 

I belief that BMW bikes are on almost all continents and many have circumnavigated the world hitting the very extremes of temps. 
 

Put the whatever oil in your bike, give it a go. I get some hits because I use diesel oil, but my miles are evidence that its doing just fine in all the bikes ive used it, HP4, RT and GSA since 600 mile service. 

Just a thought Rougarou...just a thought.  I know Harley is world witd also and they change oil a lot.  Not sure why.  Obviously I'm just a dumb guy trying to figure this out. 

[Rougarou]

Well there are many here that believe in following manufacturers guidance, and if thats your thing, ya might wanna listen to them, but if you are looking to have someone bless you using something outside those limits, good luck. 
 

Im not even gonna say what I do is the best way, but what I do works for me. 

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, Jimmers said:

Just a thought Rougarou...just a thought.  I know Harley is world witd also and they change oil a lot.  Not sure why.  Obviously I'm just a dumb guy trying to figure this out. 

Evening Jimmers

 

The manufactures test engines for thousands of hours on high load dynos under very cold to extremely hot operating conditions, take oil samples regularly & have those tested in their labs. At the same time they have a number of test vehicles running different durability  tests under conditions that most riders never get close to. I don't know what durability schedules  BMW  used but I wouldn't be surprised if they have close to 1,000,000 miles of testing before releasing a motorcycle line for production. 

 

Yes, sometimes even with all of that they can miss the mark but as soon as the first new owner beta testing warranty concerns start coming in they redesign or re-test then make running changes. If, for instance, that change requires a new oil type or viscosity that quickly shows up as service advisory or service bulletin to dealers & the superseded oil is quickly added to the BMW parts manual.

 

Now if you are smarter than the BMW engineering team & smarter than their oil supplier engineering team & have enough resources to test in the desert heat in extended idling events, test at 100 mph+ for hours straight, test at extreme cold, test zub-zero cold starts, test at high altitudes, test in 3rd world countries with way less than top tier fuel, test for extended miles at full GVW weight  running at engine red-line for long periods, test running clutch abuse schedules, test at over-milage oil change intervals, test at full charging system output for stator cooling concerns.

 

Plus, the oil's effect on the motorcycle emission system parts like o2 sensors & catalytic converter operation / life, emission compliance must be tested & verified so the vehicle remains emission compliant for it's expected emission control life. 

 

And,  at end of testing completely tear the engines & transmissions down then precisely measure every wear part from many test & durability vehicles. 

 

Then you would probably be able to select a motor oil that is at least as good as the OEM, possibly even better but then you would have to repeat all the above on a number of test & durability vehicles to verify that change was an actual improvement & did not have any hidden got-ya's. 

 

 

 

 

[Rougarou]

Ya, I did all that, hence rotella😁

[JCtx]

9 hours ago, Stiggy said:

Clearly from my Blackstone, the 5W-40 wasn't a '40' in just 4,000 miles

I wouldn't worry about that; it must be taken into account. Otherwise, you'd be changing the oil every 1K miles. I wouldn't run it more than 5K, but that should be perfectly acceptable. And I live in even hotter TX. Thicker is not always better, due to more friction (heat), and less lubrication, which you do NOT want (thinner oil flows quicker). It's all a balance, so I'd stick with what is called, but to each his own, of course.

[Stiggy]

Good points above. Perhaps BMW designs these things to run on 5W-30 from the start so they recommend 5W-40 for the oil spec so that by 6,000 miles, what you've got left is essentially a 5W-30 in the crankcase.

In my case, I'll dump this oil at 4,000 regardless.

 

I'd send an email to Germany about it but they'd only tell me to talk to my dealer anyway .

[Rougarou]

Paranoia and overthinkers.

 

BMW is time or distance on oil changes, 12 months or 6k.  Do that, and be done with it.  If'n you don't trust the "recommendations" fine on ya, change your oil at every fuel stop to calm your soul into feeling that it is better.  I have a guy at work that has a modern Ram pickup, 2018ish,...he changes his oil at 3k intervals,....why,......because his "daddy" said that's the way it should be done

[Dave_in_TX]

3 hours ago, Stiggy said:

Good points above. Perhaps BMW designs these things to run on 5W-30 from the start so they recommend 5W-40 for the oil spec so that by 6,000 miles, what you've got left is essentially a 5W-30 in the crankcase.

 

Some Honda motorcycless that originally were spec'ed for 10w40 are now spec'ed for 10w30.

 

I'm sure BMW us aware that 5w40 is likely to shear down to 5w30 before 6k miles.

[Cap]

22 hours ago, Dave_in_TX said:

Without an oil analysis, it's just speculation that more frequent oil changes benefit your bike.

 

I disagree.  If a study of oil shearing properties is published in a peer-reviewed scholarly journal, then the results of that study are not speculation.  And if a motorcycle manufacturer recommends that you use oil of a specific viscosity, and you know from peer-reviewed scholarly research that viscosity degrades within 2500-3000 miles for most oils, then applying that knowledge to your own motorcycle is rational.

 

I concur that performing an oil analysis on your own motorcycle would produce an additional data point for the degradation of viscosity of your choice of oil, for the specific mileage that was run, under the specific conditions that were present, for the duration of time involved.  However, that one additional data point, if added to the larger sample of data reported in the scholarly study, would not change the findings of the study.  Moreover, if you happened to run your oil past the point at which the viscosity became degraded, your mini-experiment has the potential to induce some amount of marginal wear to your engine that could otherwise be avoided.  And your mini-experiment has a cost that is about the same as the cost of changing the oil.  So, I conclude that using oil-analysis to determine oil-change intervals based on viscosity loss is a pointless exercise.

 

There are other reasons to use oil-analysis... If you want to monitor the long-term health of your engine, then periodic oil analyses can help you to detect an increase in metals or babbit that could signal that it is time for a rebuild.  This is a common practice for light aircraft.  An aircraft engine, as I know from painful personal experience, can cost as much as $60,000 for a complete rebuild.  So, the costs of periodic oil analyses are trivial in comparison.  In contrast, the cost to repair or replace our motorcycle engines is much less, and few of us will own a motorcycle long enough to exceed the service life of the engine.  Which leads back to my original point: if you want to have many years of trouble-free service from your motorcycle that has a wet clutch, then change the oil every 2500-3000 miles as the research suggests.  And don't bother with oil analyses unless you are simply curious, or unless you intend to operate the motorcycle for a long time.

 

Cap

[Jimmers]

Thanks Cap and Dirtrider for your in depth info.  Good info to chew on.  As said, it’s all up to the individual to run what they think is best and to change oil when they want.  After all, it’s their dollar!

[dirtrider]

21 minutes ago, Jimmers said:

Thanks Cap and Dirtrider for your in depth info.  Good info to chew on.  As said, it’s all up to the individual to run what they think is best and to change oil when they want.  After all, it’s their dollar!

Morning Jimmers

 

Just keep in mind that camshaft failures on the wethead are not unheard of so as long as you have oil receipts that show you used a BMW approved motor oil, & the oil tests out to be proper specs, and you can sort of prove the oil was changed at the proper intervals then BMW warranty should cover the cam failure. If you are out of warranty then using a proper oil (with receipts)  can go a long ways towards a BMW good-will repair or partial cost recovery. 

 

Your 2017 has some age on it & if also higher miles then you are probably way past any BMW help so use whatever oil you want.  If the motorcycle lives along life then you chose wisely, if you fail a cam lobe, or fail a stator, or fail a clutch, etc then you can blame BMW, or blame the oil , or blame the rider but you can't blame the advise you received on this site.  

[Jimmers]

DR,

 

Mine is a 2017 RT and way out of warranty at almost 41K miles.  Don't think a "good will" warranty would apply, but who knows.  Since I bought it used I don't have any paperwork or dealer confirmations of oil changes or type used.  I'm probably flying on my own dollar.  I did do a cam, etc. inspection and hardly had any cam wear at all, also checked the cam timing which was perfectly in spec, so all is good.  Wish I knew what type of oil the PO was running, but.....

 

I'm currently running the Liqui-Moly 5w40 and will decide when it's time to change oil whether I'll run the 10w40 or 10w50 oil.  Time will tell.  Getting a lot of info from this thread so that is a good thing,  Never hurts to get more information!

[Hosstage]

The best oil to use: fresh

The second best oil to use: some

 

With new bikes and cars, I change the oil much earlier than recommendations for the first 3 oil changes. I like to get any early wear metal particles out right away. After that,they get stretched out. But not to the 7500 miles recommended by the car manufacturer, usually closer to 5000.

[Hosstage]

I hate to admit it, but I don't pay close enough attention to the mileage between oil changes on the bikes. I know about what my average yearly mileage is, and change oil when it "feels" like it's about time.

But they're Harleys, and they mostly just care that they have oil, fresh or not. Tranny and primary containing the clutch are all different compartments, so far less engine oil contamination from those components.

[taylor1]

49 minutes ago, Hosstage said:

and they mostly just care that they have oil, fresh or not.

Yep    I'm pretty sure that's how my 49 year old airhead looks at it too

[Dave_in_TX]

3 hours ago, Jimmers said:

DR,

 

Mine is a 2017 RT and way out of warranty at almost 41K miles.  Don't think a "good will" warranty would apply, but who knows.  Since I bought it used I don't have any paperwork or dealer confirmations of oil changes or type used.  I'm probably flying on my own dollar.  I did do a cam, etc. inspection and hardly had any cam wear at all, also checked the cam timing which was perfectly in spec, so all is good.  Wish I knew what type of oil the PO was running, but.....

 

I'm currently running the Liqui-Moly 5w40 and will decide when it's time to change oil whether I'll run the 10w40 or 10w50 oil.  Time will tell.  Getting a lot of info from this thread so that is a good thing,  Never hurts to get more information!

Sine you're determined to try something else and you live in  warm climate, you might try 10w40. It will only be thicker at start up but should be  little more shear resistant than 5w40 since it requires less viscosity modifiers.

[Paul De]

On 7/3/2024 at 5:33 PM, dirtrider said:

The manufactures test engines for thousands of hours on high load dynos under very cold to extremely hot operating conditions, take oil samples regularly & have those tested in their labs

That is a fact.  I was acquainted with a couple of test riders for HD out of their R&D group in MIlwaukee and those guys road 365 days a year, side cars went on in October and came off in April/May.  They had all kinds of assignments, sometimes in places like Death Valley. Milwaukee winters as nasty as they can be, were not the only frigid places they test rode the bikes.  That giant apartment size top box Harley makes were put on all the test mules and looked like a porcupine with all the test leads coming out the sides heading off to one sensor or another to log what was going on for all sorts parameters. Those bikes would get torn down more than once in their life as a test mule. There were bikes that were tested to fail on purpose for some test protocol or another, get rebuilt, and put into another test assignment.  This was in addition to the controlled environment room where some poor Hawg would get strapped to a dyno to be abused in some form or fashion.

 

And after that machine was going to be dropped from the testing program, somebody inside Hawg Central would snag that whipped beast for a sweet price and fix it up and be ridden many more thousands of miles in civilian life.

 

I have no doubt the German BMW engineers are whipping their bikes just as hard and long.

 

The moral of the story is if some HD or BMW Motorad R&D engineer wants to sell you a nice looking used bike cheap…ask some questions, even if the oil looks pristine.

[John Ranalletta]

On 7/3/2024 at 9:59 AM, Dave_in_TX said:

Without an oil analysis, it's just speculation that more frequent oil changes benefit your bike.

 

[Dave_in_TX]

58 minutes ago, John Ranalletta said:

 

It's well known that multi viscosity oils will shear down and lose viscosity. H I we've, some shear quicker than others. Also, viscosity isn't the only factor that determines if an oil needs changing.

[Jimmers]

Thick oil (20w50) vs Thin oil (5w20) good video.  Skip to 37:00 min. to see the answer or listen to the whole video as I did.

 

 

[LAF]

OMG  Just use 5w40 and change every 6000 miles.

 

I do not get all this consternation over oil.  I change every 6K or close, I have run 5700 and I have run 7200 with no ill effects.

 

You know Amsoil guaranteed their oil for 10,000 miles 20 years ago!  True synthetic oil will last way more then 6000 miles.

 

Sheer is not the only or final determination if an oil is a "good" oil.

 

As to other viscosity's I have been tempted but never made the leap in any of the BMW's I have owned.  I figure if the factory is guaranteed 3 years or 36K they have to know what oil to recommend.  At 36K the bike's requirements are not suddenly going to change.

 

In all the years of riding I am not sure I have EVER read of an oil related failure.

 

I have to run 0-20w in my Honda Coupe.  It is 11 years old and purring.

 

Search for another Windmill to tilt at.

[realshelby]

Oil viscosity failing which will lead to....what? More opinion NOT based on facts. Like DR says, BMW KNOWS what oil will allow a wethead or shifthead engine to perform its entire life without an oil related failure. Period. That they recommend a 5-40 over a 5-30 oil tells me they have plenty of "cushion" built into the oil they specify for these engines. Don't overlook the fact that a water cooled engine does NOT need as heavy a viscosity oil compared to an air cooled engine. 

 

For the record I have two oil analysis reports from Blackstone Labs. Both with 5-40 oil ( Liqui-Moly), both with over 7000 miles on the oil. Both reports show oil had considerable life left in it. Tech suggested going to 9000 miles on next changes for what that is worth. Yes, the viscosity was less at 7000 miles than when new....but again I am sure BMW allows for that due to what they learned in developing these engines....

 

Hit 102 degrees here yesterday at my house. I have lots of miles on the bike at 100+ temps.......

[Paul De]

LOL   

 

Run what ever spins your crank, it probably will work, or surely be expensive to fix if it doesn't.  Free will is a wonderful thing and the consequence of those choices will follow.

[Stiggy]

On 7/6/2024 at 7:49 AM, realshelby said:

Oil viscosity failing which will lead to....what? More opinion NOT based on facts. Like DR says, BMW KNOWS what oil will allow a wethead or shifthead engine to perform its entire life without an oil related failure. Period. That they recommend a 5-40 over a 5-30 oil tells me they have plenty of "cushion" built into the oil they specify for these engines. Don't overlook the fact that a water cooled engine does NOT need as heavy a viscosity oil compared to an air cooled engine. 

 

For the record I have two oil analysis reports from Blackstone Labs. Both with 5-40 oil ( Liqui-Moly), both with over 7000 miles on the oil. Both reports show oil had considerable life left in it. Tech suggested going to 9000 miles on next changes for what that is worth. Yes, the viscosity was less at 7000 miles than when new....but again I am sure BMW allows for that due to what they learned in developing these engines....

 

Hit 102 degrees here yesterday at my house. I have lots of miles on the bike at 100+ temps.......

This is what I was looking for. A 'true' 6000 mile capable oil, (and a lab test to prove it.)

 

If @realshelby has already sent the sample and got those results, I see no reason to 'reinvent gravity' so I'll switch just on this post alone.

 

Many thanks Terry,

 

Dave

[RTinNC]

On 7/6/2024 at 7:21 AM, LAF said:

OMG  Just use 5w40 and change every 6000 miles.

 

 

YES !!   What he said!    Good lord this is amazing .... but entertaining for sure.

 

[Hosstage]

On the HD forum that I read, oil threads are not allowed in the tech sections, strictly social section.

[Skywagon]

All you ever wanted to know about ahl additives... starting with ZDDP intro....

 

And at the 18:30 mark you get to learn about Rotella.  Something wrong with me...I watched the whole thing on 1.25 speed.

[Paul De]

Ha, Skywagon you get the beat a dead horse trophy for the last post

 

 

 

And yet as a guy that invented specialty glues for almost 40 years, I sure do appreciate the value of beating dead horses The chemist nerd in me found the video very interesting as well.

Thanks for sharing.

[Skywagon]

45 minutes ago, Paul De said:

dead horse

 

I doubt any oil thread is ever dead.  Just say oil and 5 pages will magically appear with all kinds of elixirs, potients, and cures for diseases.  I think the main thing to get out of this is don't put any additives in your oil as it will change the chemical makeup and cause engine deterioration in one form or another.  Never use SeaFoam in the oil.

[Dave_in_TX]

1 hour ago, Skywagon said:

Never use SeaFoam in the oil.

Or Marvel Mystery Oil.

[Rougarou]

1 hour ago, Skywagon said:

 

I doubt any oil thread is ever dead.  Just say oil and 5 pages will magically appear with all kinds of elixirs, potients, and cures for diseases.  I think the main thing to get out of this is don't put any additives in your oil as it will change the chemical makeup and cause engine deterioration in one form or another.  Never use SeaFoam in the oil.

 

38 minutes ago, Dave_in_TX said:

Or Marvel Mystery Oil.

 

 

But, but, but, engineers spent much dollars at colleges and universities to get chemical degrees to develop sea foam and marvel mystery oil to add to your oil and make it better..........is that now worthless research and studies?  Anyway, Slick 50 is the way to go!

[Hosstage]

Slick 50, the greatest oil invention ever!

Or, at least the greatest advertising campaign ever besides the Sham Wow.

[Dave_in_TX]

2 hours ago, Hosstage said:

Slick 50, the greatest oil invention ever!

Or, at least the greatest advertising campaign ever besides the Sham Wow.

"Or, at least the greatest advertising campaign ever"

+1 on that!

[Paul De]

 No way, This is the only good additive

It’s the thickest stuff out there!