Driveshaft Recall Update

[Dave_in_TX]

7 minutes ago, Bruno From Québec said:

Because they always put the tupperware screws back in the wrong holes 

Or don't use all the screws.

[marcopolo]

2 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Morning RTinNC

 

Unless BMW has a special price for owners of the 1300 at mandatory replacement then the parts book shows the 1300GS shaft is    (take a deep breath)      $1,570.66 + tax & labor obviously.

 

I guess that is one sly way of getting BMW owners to trade-in their motorcycle at 49-50K & buy a new one.  

Yes, the driveshaft on the 1300GS is much more expensive than the older shaft for the wethead 1200s/1250s (after that precipitous price drop a while back).  And, the maintenance schedule for the 1300 also calls for inspection and regreasing of the shaft every 12,000 miles (like the 1200s/1250s), but the replacement interval for the 1300 driveshaft is 48,000 miles, a bit longer than the 36,000-mile replacement interval for the 1200s/1250s.  And, as pointed out, all driveshaft mainteanance/replacement on the 1300 - and model-year 2024 R-series 1250 bikes - is paid by the owner (because these new requirements are included in the owners manuals for these 2024 models.  Wonder how many purchasers know this, and its ramifications?).  It's only model-year 2023 and older R-series wetheads where maintenace/replacemnet of the shaft is covered by warranty.

[dirtrider]

5 hours ago, marcopolo said:

Yes, the driveshaft on the 1300GS is much more expensive than the older shaft for the wethead 1200s/1250s (after that precipitous price drop a while back).  And, the maintenance schedule for the 1300 also calls for inspection and regreasing of the shaft every 12,000 miles (like the 1200s/1250s), but the replacement interval for the 1300 driveshaft is 48,000 miles, a bit longer than the 36,000-mile replacement interval for the 1200s/1250s.  And, as pointed out, all driveshaft mainteanance/replacement on the 1300 - and model-year 2024 R-series 1250 bikes - is paid by the owner (because these new requirements are included in the owners manuals for these 2024 models.  Wonder how many purchasers know this, and its ramifications?).  It's only model-year 2023 and older R-series wetheads where maintenace/replacemnet of the shaft is covered by warranty.

Afternoon Mark/ All

 

I looks like Willaim was ahead of some of us (at least ahead of me) on the 1250 drive shaft price drop. He posted it at $224.00 farther up in this thread. My parts sources still showed the shaft at $1300.00+, they now show the $224.00 price.

 

If the post free-shaft cutoff date (customer pay date) 1250 shaft remains at $224.00 & the new 1300  shaft gets shamed into a drastic price reduction. Then it would most likely price out, even with paying for the drive shaft changes (or just buying the shaft then doing the greasing & shaft changes yourself), to be a fair amount cheaper than the needed number of chain/sprocket changes during the same long term mileage.   

 

Yes, you buy a drive shaft bike so you don't have that chain thing to deal with but overall, cost wise, it might not be too much different than the cost of chain/sprocket replacements.  (a small diamond in a large pile of crap)

 

If the 1300 shaft stays at $1500.00+ then I'm betting we will see a number of 1300 shafts sent out for greaseable U joint installation. The U joints aren't even that difficult to install yourself if you have welding experience & have a way to true the shaft runout on the joint centerline. (like a lathe). But at $224.00 per new shaft  the work & joint cost is not worth the aggravation. 

[dirtrider]

Afternoon,

 

I was just reading some info on the new 1300GS & it appears that BMW did improve the drive shaft.

 

Per Mike Botan__  The (1300) shaft drive now has larger universal joints, and its reduced deflection angle reduces “…the non-uniformity of the rotational transmission that is inherent in propeller shaft joints.” 

 

So, it looks like larger U joints & closer U joint running angles. (all good for reliability) 

[Scotto336]

Hi D.R.  Based upon your background I’m sure you know more about these things than me.  I’ve never designed a u joint.  Please correct me if I’m wrong.  It won’t be the first time.  Having said that, I kind of doubt that it’s a 0-degree issue.  My understanding of u joints is that the stress converges towards zero as the angle decreases to the point of .5 degree.  That very slight angle permits the needles in the bearings to roll enough to prevent damage due to lack of rotation provided the needles are sized appropriately for the loads at hand to begin with.  I can’t imagine a road smooth enough that the bearings would be sitting at zero degrees for extended periods.  Size of the bearings (needle length) and extra load due to modern bike torque is another story.  If the torque induced Hertz stresses in the bearings are close enough to the ragged edge to begin with (bearings too small) then we might see these failures, perhaps more so for those with heavy throttle hands. Throw a bit of water into the equation and things can go downhill quickly. I replaced a lot of transmission input shafts on airheads for guys that I knew were beating their bikes (wheelies and burnouts).  BMW replacing shafts at mileage intervals for free kind of smells like the joints were not sized optimally to begin with.  There’s also no shortage of high mileage bikes out there with no issues, so again, riding style may play a role.  I’m not suggesting that folks should baby their bikes, just trying to understand what’s going on.

[dirtrider]

3 hours ago, Scotto336 said:

Hi D.R.  Based upon your background I’m sure you know more about these things than me.  I’ve never designed a u joint.  Please correct me if I’m wrong.  It won’t be the first time.  Having said that, I kind of doubt that it’s a 0-degree issue.  My understanding of u joints is that the stress converges towards zero as the angle decreases to the point of .5 degree.  That very slight angle permits the needles in the bearings to roll enough to prevent damage due to lack of rotation provided the needles are sized appropriately for the loads at hand to begin with.  I can’t imagine a road smooth enough that the bearings would be sitting at zero degrees for extended periods.  Size of the bearings (needle length) and extra load due to modern bike torque is another story.  If the torque induced Hertz stresses in the bearings are close enough to the ragged edge to begin with (bearings too small) then we might see these failures, perhaps more so for those with heavy throttle hands. Throw a bit of water into the equation and things can go downhill quickly. I replaced a lot of transmission input shafts on airheads for guys that I knew were beating their bikes (wheelies and burnouts).  BMW replacing shafts at mileage intervals for free kind of smells like the joints were not sized optimally to begin with.  There’s also no shortage of high mileage bikes out there with no issues, so again, riding style may play a role.  I’m not suggesting that folks should baby their bikes, just trying to understand what’s going on.

Afternoon Scott

 

I don't know what to tell you other than I have seen a number of brinelled U joint cross's that were run at near 0° angles. It does seem somewhat more critical on harsher firing vehicles (4 cylinder manual transmission)  but as far as I can tell it wasn't limited to the little 4's. 

 

The BMW 1200/1250 high compression 2 cylinder boxer probably puts a fairly hard hit into those U joint needles at every firing stroke. Not a lot of contact area on those small pin needles.

 

The BMW 1200/1250 has 2 joints, both with the same working loads, the one with the lowest working angle is the one typically failing (is some or most of that moisture related)? Possibly but if it was you would think that BMW would put more effort into addressing the moisture part rather the keep replacing drive shafts. Is some of the problem U joint angles? If so then BMW would probably change the U joint working angle on future motorcycles. 

 

Go look at some of the old BMW 1100/1150 swing arm to final drive bearings, those continually move (but typically not far) you will have to search far & wide to find any with some miles on them that don't have brinelled races from the needles. 

 

This is all just guessing from afar as I haven't seen any of the BMW captured failed shafts & haven't seen any of their failure analyses reports. I am basing my theory's on my experience with the automotive/light truck side. 

 

For all I know it isn't any of the things we have mentioned,  like static electricity from rear tire (without static bands) arcing across the U joint needles leaving small pits (it wouldn't be the first bearing that a rubber tire's static buildup killed)

 

If the 1300 does in fact have larger U joints & more favorable working angles then it seems BMW is trying to address the failure issue. Time & rider beta testing will tell if they have succeeded. 

 

 

  

[Scotto336]

Appreciate your thoughts D.R.  If I had to place a bet it would be primarily on moisture ingress.  These bearings obviously rely on lubrication and water sucks as a lubricant and also causes corrosion.  I would further bet that the bearings are somewhat under-designed to begin with for long life in our high torque application. 

[Scotto336]

Also worth noting that I personally never saw a U joint failure in an Airhead BMW that wasn't related to someone not tightening the bolts properly to the transmission output flange.  Those were sealed from moisture with proper boots and clamps.  They weren't usually managing the level of torque we have, but my race bike saw double duty in both drag and road racing.  Not a great bike for drag racing but I didn't have access to a dyno back then so that's where I did some of my tuning. No problems. 

[dirtrider]

12 minutes ago, Scotto336 said:

Appreciate your thoughts D.R.  If I had to place a bet it would be primarily on moisture ingress.  These bearings obviously rely on lubrication and water sucks as a lubricant and also causes corrosion.  I would further bet that the bearings are somewhat under-designed to begin with for long life in our high torque application. 

Evening Scott

 

Yes, the moisture thing has to be addressed. 

 

We'll just have to wait see where BMW is going with the 1300  & later. BMW must have a lot of test miles on the 1300 by now so possibly they have the new design vetted pretty well.

 

My guess/hope is that the 1300 48K shaft replacement is just a CYA precaution as it is easier (with lower chance of lawsuits) to put a bulletin out in the future stating that for most riders that shaft replacement will only be required if it doesn't pass a specific test, or if the shaft is found to have problems at the 48K service.   Than it would to go the other way & say nothing now but in the future require a customer to pay for a new shaft due to possible failures. (BMW would be back in the free shaft business again)

[Stiggy]

3 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

Evening Scott

 

Yes, the moisture thing has to be addressed. 

 

We'll just have to wait see where BMW is going with the 1300  & later. BMW must have a lot of test miles on the 1300 by now so possibly they have the new design vetted pretty well.

 

My guess/hope is that the 1300 48K shaft replacement is just a CYA precaution as it is easier (with lower chance of lawsuits) to put a bulletin out in the future stating that for most riders that shaft replacement will only be required if it doesn't pass a specific test, or if the shaft is found to have problems at the 48K service.   Than it would to go the other way & say nothing now but in the future require a customer to pay for a new shaft due to possible failures. (BMW would be back in the free shaft business again)

Add in that relatively few 1300's will ever see 48,000 miles too. Cheap insurance after all they've had to pay so far.

[dirtrider]

3 minutes ago, Stiggy said:

Add in that relatively few 1300's will ever see 48,000 miles too. Cheap insurance after all they've had to pay so far.

Evening Stiggy

 

Yes, it probably won't be a big deal either way. Rear will probably be dropped for service at 48k (dealer or at home) anyhow.

 

If the shaft is still over $1500.00 then there will probably  be shops that offer just U joint replacements in the existing shaft (there are few now but someone might specialize). Or the shaft price might drop to keep the peace.   

[Dave_in_TX]

57 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

Evening Stiggy

 

Yes, it probably won't be a big deal either way. Rear will probably be dropped for service at 48k (dealer or at home) anyhow.

 

If the shaft is still over $1500.00 then there will probably  be shops that offer just U joint replacements in the existing shaft (there are few now but someone might specialize). Or the shaft price might drop to keep the peace.   

If the 1300 shaft price remains around $1500, there will probably be rebuildable aftermarket shafts available. There are already aftermarket rebuildable driveshsfts for the wethead and hexhead/camhead. Unfortunately, the werhead one is about $750 so for most people, a nonrebuildabe OEM shaft is probably more economical.

[Scotto336]

Agreed Dave.  As you know, those $750 shafts are coming from Emerald Isle in Taiwan.  The joints are said to be German made.  I've spent considerable time in Taiwan manufacturing facilities and some are really great, others, well,  not so much. That said, I have used EI components before with no issues so I would tend to trust these shafts, and I do like that they come with Zerk fittings.  I have to wonder where BMW's new, lower priced shafts are coming from.  I find it hard to believe that you can make them in Germany for $250.00 retail, even if BMW isn't marking them up much.  German sunglasses typically cost much more than that. 

[Stiggy]

China is a mixed bag of quality. Our Brembo calipers have been manufactured there since 2000. I haven't heard any complaints.

 

They manufacture evaporators (for cooling<) for us, along with the control panels to operate them. As long as we are doing the design, their work is precise. (Just don't ask them to decide how to modify something on the fly ) YMMV.

[AppFan]

Made an appointment two weeks out for the 36k driveshaft replacement for my 18 RT. Dealer had them in stock and could have gotten to it sooner but today was my first opening. Tech said the old one passed the inspection.  Was a pretty painless way to get free parts today. 

[PeterBaumgart]

On 7/4/2024 at 2:44 AM, wbw6cos said:

Does anybody know if the lack of spline lube IS the actual cause of the drive shaft failure?   

No, it's not the splines that fail (usually, though they can), but the bearing in the universal joints (one near each of the two ends) that seize eventually, and before that don't turn smoothly, binding partially while doing their turning and gimbaling. This jerky motion is what the test tests for. 

[PeterBaumgart]

On 7/3/2024 at 3:28 PM, Bruno From Québec said:

I'm curious to know if anyone was able to obtain a driveshaft to replace themselves.

So it seems my 2020 R1250GS gets a free driveshaft (with install/labor I assume?) for life - every 36k miles? Since I seem to accumulate my miles quickly, this is a significant value. (I just got one replacement, about 1.5 years ago.) On the new R1300GS you will need to replace the shaft every 36k miles at your own cost. So out of curiosity I asked how much that would cost. Here in California, very close to a whopping $3k! So if you do 15k miles/year, as I do, the bike basically costs you another $1.25k/year of ownership. Or, if you keep it for 5-10 years, it's like paying $6-12k more for it (or 20-40% on a $30k bike price). So I guess I am just keeping my current one, at least until the extended (with no mileage limit!) warranty runs out in 2027! (Which also is not transferable with the bike, in case that I'd sell it!) Great sales strategy for new bikes, BMW Motorrad! (/sarcasm off.)

[dirtrider]

38 minutes ago, PeterBaumgart said:

 On the new R1300GS you will need to replace the shaft every 36k miles at your own cost. So out of curiosity I asked how much that would cost. 

Evening Peter

 

I think BMW changed the 2023 1250 recommended interval to 50,000 miles. 

[RTinNC]

4 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Evening Peter

 

I think BMW changed the 2023 1250 recommended interval to 50,000 miles. 

I thought only the 2024’s got the 50k replacement at the owners expense.  The 23’s were part of the free replacement or so I thought 

[PeterBaumgart]

2 hours ago, RTinNC said:

I thought only the 2024’s got the 50k replacement at the owners expense.  The 23’s were part of the free replacement or so I thought 

IC, thanks. But a 1250GS from 2022 or earlier would get a new shaft every 36k miles?

[RTinNC]

7 hours ago, PeterBaumgart said:

IC, thanks. But a 1250GS from 2022 or earlier would get a new shaft every 36k miles?

Yup!

 

And per my dealer you’d also get free shaft lube and check every 12k

[JCtx]

Lube is not included with the TSB; at least the one I read. BUT if you get it for free, then make sure it's in writing, so you don't get a surprise bill when BMW denies paying dealer for it. As far as the check, I interpreted it as only free the first time (then 36K-mile replacements), but could be wrong.

[AppFan]

5 hours ago, JCtx said:

Lube is not included with the TSB; at least the one I read. BUT if you get it for free, then make sure it's in writing, so you don't get a surprise bill when BMW denies paying dealer for it. As far as the check, I interpreted it as only free the first time (then 36K-mile replacements), but could be wrong.

Take a look at the one posted on the NHSTA site. it includes the 12k lube and replace every 36k. A snippet and link below:
 

This Service Information is published for all K5X vehicles with model year 2023 and older.
Check cardan shaft with ISTA-led test method and grease splines every 12,000 miles (20.000 km).
Replacement of the cardan shaft (driveshaft) every 36,000 Miles (60.000 km) (cardan shaft (driveshaft)
mileage – has to be checked!)

 

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2023/MC-10248094-0001.pdf

 

[RTinNC]

1 hour ago, AppFan said:

Take a look at the one posted on the NHSTA site. it includes the 12k lube and replace every 36k. A snippet and link below:
 

This Service Information is published for all K5X vehicles with model year 2023 and older.
Check cardan shaft with ISTA-led test method and grease splines every 12,000 miles (20.000 km).
Replacement of the cardan shaft (driveshaft) every 36,000 Miles (60.000 km) (cardan shaft (driveshaft)
mileage – has to be checked!)

 

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2023/MC-10248094-0001.pdf

 

Yup!  That’s exactly what my dealer (same dealer as AppFan) told me.  And fortunately I have a great dealer who would not try and bill me at a later date. 

[Paul De]

Belt drive is an elegant solution…if only it didn’t have to be so wide when dealing with a high HP motor and an errant stone that could ruin the party

[marcopolo]

On 8/18/2024 at 2:00 AM, PeterBaumgart said:

IC, thanks. But a 1250GS from 2022 or earlier would get a new shaft every 36k miles?

It’s model year 2023, and earlier, not 2022 and earlier. That’s spelled out quite clearly in the Service Information Bulletin dealing with changes to the maintenance schedules for all R-series boxers. It’s the one published in December, 2023. 
 

I have a 2023 1250GS, so needless to say I paid attention to the details in the Service Bulletins. The replacement interval for the driveshaft on a 2023 GS (and other wethead  boxers) is 60,000 km/36,000 miles. The replacement interval on the 2024 1300GS is greater, 80,000 km/48,000 miles. 
 

I do not know what the replacement interval is for the 2024 1250GS Adventure. 

[RTinNC]

OK …. So 3 pages of discussion again on this topic and we’re back to what we knew ….

 

   2023 and older get free shaft every 36k

 

  2023 and older get free check and Lube every 12K

 

  2024 and newer owner pays for shaft every 50k and pays for lube every 12k

 

  Lots of “speculation “. On the cause but no definitive answer.

 

 

So now ….. what kind of oil should I use ?

[dirtrider]

19 minutes ago, RTinNC said:

OK …. So 3 pages of discussion again on this topic and we’re back to what we knew ….

 

   2023 and older get free shaft every 36k

 

  2023 and older get free check and Lube every 12K

 

  2024 and newer owner pays for shaft every 50k and pays for lube every 12k

 

  Lots of “speculation “. On the cause but no definitive answer.

 

 Morning  RTinNC

 

It's getting more defined. The 2024 riders manual now has the service schedule in the manual (for the 1300 GS anyhow).

 

The drive shaft & re-grease is in the service schedule. Everything else in that schedule is customer pay, so we should probably assume the driveshaft re-grease & replacement is also customer pay (at least as of right now). After couple of recalls and/or a few law suits who knows the future? 

[dirtrider]

More,

 

It also looks like anything after 5/2023 has the same service schedule (so that also looks (at face value) like 5/2023 up is also customer pay.

 

I can't say for sure but probably pre 5/2023 build (if there even is a pre 5/2023 build)  would be BMW warranty pay.   

 

I guess the bottom line here is:   A person needs to have the selling dealer FULLY explain the drive shaft service & replacement costs & who pays what at TIME OF SALE, then get it in writing.

 

 

 

 

 

[RTinNC]

39 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

More,

 

It also looks like anything after 5/2023 has the same service schedule (so that also looks (at face value) like 5/2023 up is also customer pay.

 

I can't say for sure but probably pre 5/2023 build (if there even is a pre 5/2023 build)  would be BMW warranty pay.   

 

I guess the bottom line here is:   A person needs to have the selling dealer FULLY explain the drive shaft service & replacement costs & who pays what at TIME OF SALE, then get it in writing.

 

 

 

 

 

Read @marcopolo Mark’s comments.  He bought a 2023 and IS covered as FREE

[RTinNC]

53 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

 Morning  RTinNC

 

It's getting more defined. The 2024 riders manual now has the service schedule in the manual (for the 1300 GS anyhow).

 

The drive shaft & re-grease is in the service schedule. Everything else in that schedule is customer pay, so we should probably assume the driveshaft re-grease & replacement is also customer pay (at least as of right now). After couple of recalls and/or a few law suits who knows the future? 

Yes and yes.  That’s been stated numerous times. 👍

[wbw6cos]

Greetings dirtrider, 

 

When it states regrease or lubrication for the shaft, are they talking about the splines, or do the u-joints now have zerk fittings?

 

Cheers!

[dirtrider]

20 minutes ago, wbw6cos said:

Greetings dirtrider, 

 

When it states regrease or lubrication for the shaft, are they talking about the splines, or do the u-joints now have zerk fittings?

 

Cheers!

Afternoon William

 

Just the splines, there are no grease fittings in the BMW U joints. 

[wbw6cos]

Thanks for the clarification. 

[Bernie]

When the dealer does it, they first drop the rear drive assembly and then just slide the front rubber boot off the transmission housing.

Then they slide the drive shaft a little bit of the transmission spline and apply some grease.

Then they slide the drive shaft back on the transmission output shaft.

They don't remove the drive shaft completely or the swing arm. This only takes a few minutes.

[alegerlotz]

On 7/10/2024 at 6:30 AM, Dave_in_TX said:

Or don't use all the screws.

Or break the tabs that the screws go through.  And you don't find that the tabs have been broken until you do your next service yourself or get in there for some other reason.