Moving fwd at 1st Gear: RT

[ArthurY]

Sorry if this sounds like a newbie question. All of my motorcycling experiences with manual gear bikes are Japanese bikes; so, please  allow some room for a newbie to ask some questions.

 

I noticed that I stall my '22 RT easily when attempting to move forward from rest at 1st gear. It seems like the 1st is a lot taller than my other bikes. Also, the friction point is farther away; perhaps, towards the last 1/3 of the clutch pull, when I am releasing the clutch.

 

As you already know, stalling the engine when you are trying to do a LEFT turn into a larger road with traffic is quite dangerous as the tilted front wheel acts like a pivot to tip the bike over to the left.

 

Any thoughts on how to ease into learning or re-learning to use the new to me RT gearing?

 

Thanks!

[9Mary7]

Empty parking lot practice your starts, including pull outs using the friction zone and a little rpm. Won't damage the clutch as it is oil bath in a Wethead.

Adjust the clutch lever to the smallest span and see how that helps you maintain the friction zone.

 

I also position myself for left turns so that I get the clutch out while going straight and then turn once moving.

[ArthurY]

2 hours ago, 9Mary7 said:

Adjust the clutch lever to the smallest span and see how that helps you maintain the friction zone.

Just checked it and it is on #1, which is the most restrictive.

Thanks for the suggestions.

[Hosstage]

23 hours ago, 9Mary7 said:

I also position myself for left turns so that I get the clutch out while going straight and then turn once moving

Same

[Roadking1]

My problem with the clutch on my 2022 RT is sometimes it engages earlier than others while releasing the clutch lever. 

[JCtx]

On my 2020, clutch also releases later than it should, but that's how most BMW bikes are. At least the ones I've owned. But you get used to that. Your issue is you're either not revving the engine enough, or you're releasing the clutch lever too quickly. The clutch on our bikes has very little friction zone, since it bites almost all the way out. So it just takes practice how to modulate it properly. That's pretty much how Porsche clutches are, but are very easy to drive smoothly once you get the hang of them. And same thing with BMW bikes. Finally, one other tip when turning left is to point the bike like 45-deg to the intersection, rather than 90, so you can accelerate quicker, while also following the other suggestion, to not turn while slipping the clutch (a good one). Another problem you could be having is that you're not hearing your engine/exhaust as much as you should. That happened to me, since I wear 33-dB earplugs, but after installing an Akra, and removing the exhaust valve that quiets the exhaust below 2,500 rpm, now I can hear the engine enough that I don't have to watch the tach anymore. Finally, the only time I stalled my bike (when new), was when I engaged 'hill assist', which keeps the brakes on, until you accelerate away. It takes more force than I anticipated, and stalled it. Also in part because that was before I got the Akra and valve mod. I like to start with the minimum revs needed for a smooth start, and releasing the clutch as quickly as possible, then accelerating hard if needed, once clutch is fully released. BUT, if I was in a dangerous situation, like having to cross a high-speed intersection, or whatever, I'd give it enough beans that I wouldn't have to worry about stalling it. Our engines have a lot of torque, so you shouldn't have any issues once you get used to how the clutch bites. Another suggestion is to just use 2 fingers to operate the clutch, giving you full control of it, even if you have to move the handlebar (like in a U-turn, etc). It's a good habit to catch, if you don't already do it (I always cover both levers with 2 fingers -index and middle). Hope this helps.

[profbodryak]

On 7/6/2024 at 8:09 PM, ArthurY said:

Sorry if this sounds like a newbie question. All of my motorcycling experiences with manual gear bikes are Japanese bikes; so, please  allow some room for a newbie to ask some questions.

 

I noticed that I stall my '22 RT easily when attempting to move forward from rest at 1st gear. It seems like the 1st is a lot taller than my other bikes. Also, the friction point is farther away; perhaps, towards the last 1/3 of the clutch pull, when I am releasing the clutch.

 

As you already know, stalling the engine when you are trying to do a LEFT turn into a larger road with traffic is quite dangerous as the tilted front wheel acts like a pivot to tip the bike over to the left.

 

Any thoughts on how to ease into learning or re-learning to use the new to me RT gearing?

 

Thanks!

This is one of the most pronounced differences in taking off on a 1250 vs a 1200. 1250 needs a lot more throttle opening. Not sure what you had prior to your RT but give it a little extra gas and see if it helps. 

[ArthurY]

8 minutes ago, profbodryak said:

This is one of the most pronounced differences in taking off on a 1250 vs a 1200. 1250 needs a lot more throttle opening. Not sure what you had prior to your RT but give it a little extra gas and see if it helps. 

My '22 RT is the first German boxer bike. So, pretty new to this.
Current bike : Goldwing DCT and CB1000R

Previous bikes were all Japanese, so most of their friction zone are a lot closer to front of the clutch release.

[Rinkydink]

I guess I really don’t give my 22 a lot of gas taking off. I release the clutch until it starts pulling me forward b4 giving it gas. Methinks you’ll get used to it the more you ride. 

 

[Geekmaster]

Invest a day in a "Ride Like a Pro" course.  You'll be doing all kinds of turns while keeping the bike in the friction zone.  You'll be so comfortable with it, that it won't matter how you're pointed nor where the clutch is.  Your motor memory will take over and you'll have it in the friction zone whenever needed, and let it fully out whenever the bike is going fast enough.

[professorb]

Just so you know you are not alone, I am also not a fan of the clutch on my 2021 RT. I have had my dealer's service techs look at it (twice) and they find nothing "wrong" or out-of-spec. First gear does feel at least a "tooth" too tall. Launches from full stop do not inspire the kind of confidence I am accustomed to... my previous two bikes were very different indeed, a Kawasaki Concours 14 ABS and a Ducati Diavel Gen.2. 

 

What have I done? Hours in the local school parking lot practicing launches and full-lock turns from full stop. Something else that may help a bit: set your Hill Start Control to "manual" activation, activate it, then practice launching the bike - while in a flat parking lot. I found this exercise to be helpful in teaching me how the newer RT's like to be launched -- for me it means more throttle than I am used to, learning exactly where and when the clutch becomes engaged, and learning to coordinate rolling-in more throttle just as the clutch is engaging, in a crisp and quick manner. All in all I find I need to be a bit more aggressive riding this bike than my previous bikes.

 

I really do not like this clutch! Make me work much harder than I think I should.

 

Otherwise love the bike!!

[ArthurY]

I think that Automatic Shift Assist (ASA) is constantly on my mind whenever I ride on my DCT Goldwing. 
If they implement the ASA on their new RT, I’d buy it in a heartbeat.

We will see how it goes next year when they release it on the new R1300GSA.

 

I must say that with DCT, if I’m first at the light, it felt like the Porsche Launch Ctrl when the light turns GREEN. There’s no comparison no matter how skilled you are with clutch because the DCT gears are perfectly aligned 100% of the time. And, there’s zero engine stall … ever.

[profbodryak]

I've had this discussion with the dealer mechanic who services my RT and actually rides the exact same year and model and this is just how they all are. I do miss the snapiness of the R1200RT from a complete stop. I also noticed, which may be totally subjective, that with a hot engine, R1250RT produces more valve rattling. I am getting my major service done in a little less than three weeks and will see if that shows anything out of spec. 

[JCtx]

For valve clatter, you need to set them up per Boxflyer's specs, which are 0.12 intakes, and 0.36 exhausts. A dealer wouldn't do anything unless they're out of spec... and if they are, they just put them within, probably leaving them all over the place, and equally noisy. Oh, and you need 0.02 shims for proper accuracy, which I don't even know if dealers carry those (or just 0.04s), so I'd ask if they're willing to do it that way.

 

And yes, clutch on BMWs is very weird. I always feel like it's not fully clamped (potentially allowing slip), since they grab at the very end of the travel. But apparently they don't slip. And by now I know it's 'normal', since all of my BMW bikes have always been the same, and haven't had issues with any. Nature of the beast, I guess. Finally, I believe all BMWs have a special adjustment screw where you can mess with the engagement point, but remember reading it's not recommended, as the job could go wrong. So I never tried.

[ArthurY]

Is this issue also showing up in the GS or GSA ?  Just wondering ... or is the gearing different?

 

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, JCtx said:

Finally, I believe all BMWs have a special adjustment screw where you can mess with the engagement point, but remember reading it's not recommended, as the job could go wrong. So I never tried.

Afternoon JCtx

 

Other than the rider adjustable lever position adjuster on the lever there is usually a piston pushrod length adjuster. That is factory set then LockTighted and it shouldn't be moved.  

 

If you make that push rod too long it won't open the fluid take-up port allowing fluid in or out of the piston bore with the lever at rest so it could put pressure on the clutch hydraulics as you ride therefore causing the clutch to slip.

 

If you adjust that pushrod too short it might not allow full clutch release with a hot clutch and/or hot hydraulic fluid. It can also leave the lever position loose at lever rest. If you have cruise control that can then kick the cruise control out when hitting a bump or rough road.

 

 

[JCtx]

I figured BMW set it up like that for a reason, and as long as the clutch doesn't slip, it doesn't bother me. Plus I"m used to that by now, after owning multiple BMW bikes, and all having the same trait.

[ArthurY]

I think I'm better at handling this idiosyncratic gear behavior.

Better to err on higher revs (and sound like a novice) than lower revs and stall the engine.

Went out for an 80+ mile ride and the RT was a smooth operator, nothing to complaint about, it was smooth and satisfying.

Even tried ECO mode ... ha ha 

 

 

 

 

[Bernie]

Practice makes perfect.

[duckhawk64]

On 7/23/2024 at 7:07 PM, profbodryak said:

 I also noticed, which may be totally subjective, that with a hot engine, R1250RT produces more valve rattling. 

My 2014 1200rt did this, and so does my 19 1250RT. Same exact sound. I tried 110 octane racing fuel in the 2014 for 2 tanks, and it made no difference.  

 

Of course, I don't hear it as much  with silicone ear plugs in, but I am trying to figure out how to record the sound. Maybe a go pro mounted on the engine guard. 

 

I an preparing 18k valve service and cam alignment, (A la Boxflyer full tools and shim kit, thanks again Brad), and want to record before and after. 

 

The valve rattling sounds like a deisel engine noise, to me. 

[ArthurY]

35 minutes ago, duckhawk64 said:

My 2014 1200rt did this, and so does my 19 1250RT. Same exact sound. I tried 110 octane racing fuel in the 2014 for 2 tanks, and it made no difference.  

 

Of course, I don't hear it as much  with silicone ear plugs in, but I am trying to figure out how to record the sound. Maybe a go pro mounted on the engine guard. 

 

I an preparing 18k valve service and cam alignment, (A la Boxflyer full tools and shim kit, thanks again Brad), and want to record before and after. 

 

The valve rattling sounds like a deisel engine noise, to me. 

I have a bunch of recordings ... will soon edit them and share here. 
RT's exhaust note is simply delicious ... but not the sound of the engine on the saddle (that one sounds like a tractor at times).

 

[ArthurY]

Here you go ...

 

 

[Stiggy]

I took the '17 RT out this morning and recalled this thread, so I paid attention.

My engagement starts quickly, with about 75% of the lever yet to go. It's progressive, allowing the engagement to start to creep forward and slow the motor a bit before I even have to give it any throttle.

I have not ridden the 1250's yet but it certainly seems that that BMW must have done something to the process, and not necessarily in the right direction.

[ArthurY]

On 7/27/2024 at 12:08 PM, Stiggy said:

I have not ridden the 1250's yet but it certainly seems that that BMW must have done something to the process, and not necessarily in the right direction.

Like what many of the more experienced old timers here have said about getting used to it.

I think I have gone past the inflection point of learning and now I am reaping the fruits of enjoyment.

Just found a new route deep into the farm lands and it was absolutely relaxing to see cornfields and the cattle.

[Bernie]

I also had some trouble back in late 2017 when I switched from my 07 HexHead RT to the 2018 version. It was very frustrating. Eventually I figured it out and got used to it. But this morning riding on my 23 RT, remembered something the instructor told me at the BMW Performance School, after I complained about the F800GS stalling all the time. She suggested to use only 2 fingers on the clutch lever. She said it would be easier to control the movement of the lever smoothly. Since then I started using 3 fingers for the clutch, unless I will be stopped for a longer period. 
Just an idea, give it a try. 

[ArthurY]

Thanks, I will give it try today if I get to ride.

[JCtx]

I always use index and middle fingers covering for both clutch and brake. That way you have solid grip of the handlebars with thumb, ring, and pinky fingers. And can react instantly to engage either control. That makes all the difference in the world when making U-turns and such, especially with a narrow clutch engagement band like BMW's. So yes, give it a try, but all you need are 2 fingers for the clutch. For the brake, you need strong fingers to use just those 2, but with grip exercises, it's not hard at all to invoke ABS repeatedly if needed. Good luck.

[Scotto336]

I was also having this problem with my 2019 needing clutch gymnastics to pull away.  See the thread on Booster Plug.  That fixed it for me.  Big difference and still working great after many miles.  Thread is in the Wetheads section.

[9Mary7]

On 8/1/2024 at 6:43 AM, Bernie said:

I also had some trouble back in late 2017 when I switched from my 07 HexHead RT to the 2018 version. It was very frustrating. Eventually I figured it out and got used to it. But this morning riding on my 23 RT, remembered something the instructor told me at the BMW Performance School, after I complained about the F800GS stalling all the time. She suggested to use only 2 fingers on the clutch lever. She said it would be easier to control the movement of the lever smoothly. Since then I started using 3 fingers for the clutch, unless I will be stopped for a longer period. 
Just an idea, give it a try. 

 

On 8/1/2024 at 6:50 AM, ArthurY said:

Thanks, I will give it try today if I get to ride.

FWIW, Less is more with clutch lever control. How is it working for you @ArthurY?

While working on low speed skills with another rider at START, we demonstrated that the clutch lever could be let out without opening the throttle at all; as well as idling thru uturns and figure 8's.

The solution truly is practice and repetition.  I usually practice for a short time (15 mins) at the beginning of each ride to keep up........

[dirtrider]

20 minutes ago, 9Mary7 said:

The solution truly is practice and repetition.  I usually practice for a short time (15 mins) at the beginning of each ride to keep up........

Morning  9Mary7

 

I do basically the same thing only I don't do a dedicated thing.  I typically pick the most difficult parking spot. If I can include a left or right full-lock turn into the parking spot I do that. If I am parking in a parking lot I try to make a couple of left  & right U turns keeping well inside the 2 space lines (basically on the lock or close to it). 

 

When I lead a road ride I usually include one 18' wide road U turn (pre planned so no parking lots or wide areas for riders to cheat on). This serves 2 purposes, one, it gives us something to talk about  &  heckle during breaks. But it's main purpose is to get riders that can't make the tight U turns to work on it so they can demonstrate they CAN do it with some practice. 

 

I ride a lot of dirt bikes & that makes me lazy on tight U turns & full lock turns as most of my dirt bikes can make full circles on the steering lock with little effort but good clutch control & body position is needed. 

 

 

[Scotto336]

Yes, practice is good, but my low speed and pull away fueling issues made things much harder.  I recommend fixing the problem first then practicing.  Again, the Booster Plug fixed my problem but I may not have needed it if I did the cam timing/reluctor tweeks.  I bought the bike with 13K miles on it so it's due for valve and cam check.  I may try removing the Booster Plug once I get my hands on those tools.  I'm in central NJ so a bit far from Boxflyer's shop and I'm too cheap to buy the tools that I may only use once.  

[9Mary7]

1 minute ago, dirtrider said:

When I lead a road ride I usually include one 18' wide road U turn (pre planned so no parking lots or wide areas for riders to cheat on). This serves 2 purposes, one, it gives us something to talk about  &  heckle during breaks. But it's main purpose is to get riders that can't make the tight U turns to work on it so they can demonstrate they CAN do it with some practice. 

Agreed.....Good stuff! I usually recommend using the painted spaces, starting at three spaces and tightening up to two. In Motor school we had to ride figure 8's in two pairs of opposing spaces, four total, then crossways on a steep hill.....etc.

Planning the U turn is nice, but usually not necessary when @Joe Frickin' Friday is leading!  (Sorry Mitch, I still blame the Garmin for not keeping up with us!!!)

[dirtrider]

17 minutes ago, 9Mary7 said:

Planning the U turn is nice, but usually not necessary when @Joe Frickin' Friday is leading!  (Sorry Mitch, I still blame the Garmin for not keeping up with us!!!)

Morning 9Mary7

 

Maybe he pre planned it that way (with a big smile while planning it).  

 

If I am really running hard (it happens) then I  typically put a pre-turn warning (routing point or via point) on the trip route then set it to announce. That at least gives some early warning that there is a turn coming right up that needs to be slowed down for.

 

Without that pre-turn guidance it is very easy to overshoot the turn if traveling at the speed of sound.

 

I also set my GPS to always show distance to next turn so I have an idea on when the next turn is coming.  Not foolproof but it helps avoid the chaos. 

 

Problem with just allowing Garmin to announce the turn is the leader & part of the front running bikes miss the turn but the back half figure it out in time to make the turn  so you end up with a big mess. 

[ArthurY]

1 hour ago, 9Mary7 said:

 

FWIW, Less is more with clutch lever control. How is it working for you @ArthurY?

I think I'm getting used to it. So far, no more stalling in the last 3 weeks.

Also, I ran 1.5 bottles of Chevy Techron through the tank and did some Italian tune-ups. It's much smoother now with no detectable hesitation when I apply minuscule amount of fuel.

 

Of course, when I'm first in line when the lights turn GREEN, it's nothing like the DCT on the Goldwing, which behaved like the Porsche Launch Ctrl. I usually take my time to be sure the 1st gear is engaged properly and then I rev it through to 2nd and 3rd to make up for the slow start.