Right is right

[MWS]

Ok, great day, wife went out out at 5:30AM to shop. All I had left to do was finish installing my rear shocks on the cage.....and it's riding time!!!!!!

 

Nice day, low 50's ( Not bad for NE ohio at this time of year!). Went down to SE Ohio for some sweepers.

 

Now my question on all this.

 

Right handers I pick my line and drop in, and keep the line and it feels smoooooth! The left handers are another story. I drop in and I seem to be always correcting my line.

Eyes on the vanishing point ya da ya da , but the lefties were choppy.

 

Then I realized I was dropping the left shoulder on the left hand turns, but not droppping the right shoudler on righties. Once I did not drop the left shoulder, I kept my line! In other words, keeping the shoulders parallel to the ground, I had better control!

 

Is this a good theory, or am I dreaming?

[Francois_Dumas]

I guess the simple answer is: if it works for you, it works.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Mark,

Dropping your shoulder will change the dynamics of your control inputs and the bike's reaction to same. From here on my desk, I'm having trouble figuring out just how but, things are sure to be different. On sweepers, when the turn is coming up, I tend to drop both shoulders (actually lean forward and into the turn) before the actual point of turn-in. Then a gentle push on the inside bar, the duration of which establishes my lean angle. My torso remains pretty much as it was when I initiated the turn (relative to the bike that is, not the ground). Bike leans, I lean. I do try to keep my head and more importantly, my eyes, level with the horizon. This works for me at most speeds I am content to maintain with street riding.

 

A question for you. Were your corrections on the lefts more because you found yourself crossing the yellow or were you running wide? I do have a tendency, on lefts, to begin my turn-in too early, requiring a correction as I enter what should be a smooth arc towards the apex. Seeing gets important here, especially on the street where this turn may not be like the last. What helps me is to decide my turn in point and as I reach it, be already looking further up the arc either for the apex or, on longer turns, where I wish to be on the road. Note the turn-in point, maintain a reference position as the turn unfolds (vanishing point), note apex as it appears and have your eyes already up to your exit line.

[Lawman]

Mark,

Ditto for me..Especially on two lane roads without paved shoulders..Right handers much smoother and faster than left. I almost always start my turn too soon on lefties and then have to correct..I think it's the fear of leaving the pavement that screws me up..What I've found to help me is to focus more on the outside edge of the lane and not start my turn until I need to. I then continue looking to the outside edge until I can see the exit. Works for me..

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Billie,

While that might work for you, I respectfully suggest that it is a bad place to keep your focus. I think you might be better off keeping your main vision on the vanishing point and its relationship to where you are on the road. On long sweepers especially, where neither the apex nor exit line are yet visible, you need to keep your focus on your position on the road. If you continue to look at the outside of the road, you will, inevitably, go there. Possibly way sooner than you want to, requiring yet another correction at the exit of the turn. I do agree that remaining a bit wide on a left hander is a good idea, it leaves you more room to adjust if the road tightens up and keeps your head on the proper side of the yellow line. I just don't think that using the fog line, or worse, the scenery as a reference is a good idea unless you plan on becoming part of said scenery.

[Rocket_Cowboy]

I almost always start my turn too soon on lefties and then have to correct..I think it's the fear of leaving the pavement that screws me up..What I've found to help me is to focus more on the outside edge of the lane and not start my turn until I need to. I then continue looking to the outside edge until I can see the exit. Works for me..

 

+1 ... same here. I've been attributing my left hander issues to the massive lowside I had in a fast left about three years ago which give me a nice shattered left clavical. One 5.5" plate and 8 screws later, and I still hear the sound of that bike sliding off road and into the drainage ditch. So, I catch myself always trying to enter lefts too soon, and then needing to make repetitive corrections which further blows my confidence on the turn.

[Lawman]

What's a vanishing point?

[MWS]

Ed,

I think that your statment about crossing the yellow line is what I was doing, so thinking back on the issue I believe I was setting the turn to close to the center! Right handers were no big deal, since I am already close to the center. Thanks will try it out today, too darn nice not too!

 

Lawman,

Be it right or be it wrong, in turns, I call the vanishing point the point were I don't see the finish of the turn.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Vanishing point. When you are into a corner that you can't see all the way through, the road will be coming at you from a point to your front. It is there that the road "vanishes". If you keep your focus on that point, you will get the greatest amount of information about what the road is doing and, if needed, the greatest warning about a change in road radius or an obstacle about to enter your path. Now, as the point widens a bit, you can judge the point over which you want to ride. This is not a step by step process, btw, but a continuous one in which you select an area into which you wish to ride, in a left turn, to continue with our mission here, it will be just a bit to the right of where your view of the appearing road shows. It takes a little learning to trust this as you tend to want to look at road surface but believe me, it is the way to go. Once you learn it you will find that as the vanishing point moves towards you, you can expect that the road is tightening up. If it moves away, the corner is opening. That is useful information to say the least.

[tobyzusa]

It takes a little learning to trust this as you tend to want to look at road surface ...

 

I agree with your statement that the vanishing point is the way to go, and aslo agree that it is tough to completely trust it. So, for some time now, I spend maybe 80% Of the time focus on the vanishing point, but sweep in and out to scan for sand or other road snot. Don't know if that is a good idea but it seems to work. I'd be curious if others do this as well.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

To add to that excellent reminder, remember my statement about actually trying to keep my focus just to the outside of the vanishing point. The point to all this is to expand your AWARENESS of both your position on the road and the road conditions. It really isn't about looking at a specific point, too narrow a focus there. That is like looking at Jessica Simpson and concentrating only on her right eye. There is more to the movie than that and that alone. Widen your awareness, if a scan helps you do that. I prefer to keep alert and let things just flow into my brain through my eyes. It is amazing how much information you can teach yourself to process. I really think this is what separates the great riders from us mere mortals. It is their ability to process visual and tactile information at what, to us, is just a blur.

[Lawman]

"Vanishing point. When you are into a corner that you can't see all the way through, the road will be coming at you from a point to your front. It is there that the road "vanishes"

 

Ed,

I guess you just said it better than I but if I am understanding you correctly that is what I was trying to say..On a lefty I just sorta watch the ouside edge of the roadway as far as I can see and steer to it..I just don't know a lot of these terms you guys use

 

Jessica Simpson has eyes????

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Your close, on a lefty or a righty you need to look near where the road appears, I would not call it the outside edge, more like the center with the road showing up on the inside of your focus relative to the direction of the curve. Darn, it is hard trying to describe a picture with words. I need a still from a movie clip of someone taking a sweeper. David, got any video of turn 3 at Barber? A classic sweeper only it bends to the right, not the left.

[rrrich]

I've noticed the same thing. Like Ed, I initiate lefts a little early, crowd the yellow, have to back off and re-establish my line. Here's a couple of wildly speculative thought about WHY:

 

1. My worst crash was on a left so I subconciously bring that with me. I have total confindence on turning in on rights so wait that fraction longer to get into proper line before slamming her home. Lefts are freakier and without total confidence I probably cheat by starting early.

 

2. "Cross stearing", something Leikam taught me to look out for, happens more on lefts for me. A little too much reliance on a left hand push rather than a tiny countersteer blending into body control. I'm convinced this leads to the mysterious phenomena of front left tire wear as well since I can almost feel the tire "scuffing" around lefts sometimes.

 

3. Ariel pulls to the right so the dynamics of rights/left are different going in. When praticing body control (no countersteering) rights happen almost by thinking it while lefts require a serious lean combined with a pull from my right leg on the seat.

 

All that said I'm glad () to hear other riders experience the same thing. Ok maybe not GLAD but BETTER knowing we're in this together.

 

[E30TECH]

In other words, keeping the shoulders parallel to the ground, I had better control!

 

At the risk of sounding like I dont know how to ride, are you supposed to keep your shoulders parallel to the road? I keep my shoulder parallel to the handle bars. Is that wrong?

[Agent_Orange]

Vanishing Point (1971) An offbeat mix of road action and existential drama that has earned a cult audience, this chase movie stars Barry Newman as a Vietnam vet and ex-cop who bets a friend he can drive a car from Denver to San Francisco in 15 hours. Soon Newman is pursued across the country by an armada of police and cheered on by a blind D.J. and his listeners. With Cleavon Little, Dean Jagger. Category: Action & Adventure Director: Richard C. Sarafian

Cast: Severn Darden, Robert Donner, Dean Jagger, Anthony James, Paul Koslo, Cleavon Little, Barry Newman, Karl Swenson

 

Gee and I thought it was this.

[MWS]

Perry,

My describtion of shoulders parallel to the ground was the only way I knew how to 'spain what I was feeling at the time. Not sure if it is correct.

Since then, we did a 340 mile loop today, and here's what I've discovered.

 

At first I thought I was setting up too close to the center line for the lefties, so I swung out wider, and "dropped in". The turn was smooth and without a lot of mid turn correction

By dropping in, I picked my line, leaned my body to the inside, then the bike followed.

 

Later I found out that I was making this movement a little too early and a little too much input leaning the bike and not enough with the body.

On right handers I didn't have this problem, But once I started coming into the left handers with a more "upright" bike, and a more leaned in and forward body position, I was not mid turn correcting, and starting closer to the centerline.

 

Now that brings up another question. If you got a whole lane to work with why not use it?

[Rocket_Cowboy]

If you got a whole lane to work with why not use it?

 

Better to have some margin for error?

[AdventurePoser]

Go figure...my lefties have always been smoother and better...it's gotta be a brain/spatial/perception thing. Or not.

 

Steve in So Cal

[ESokoloff]

Now that brings up another question. If you got a whole lane to work with why not use it?

 

I do.

Why not?

[JerryMather]

Dropping your shoulder and applying pressure to the left foot peg on left hand turns is taught in race schools so that your turn in is greater than if you didn't do this. By staying to the outside of the lane,( right side) and making your left turn as late as possible allows you to see more of the complete turn ahead of you and you can adjust your lane position by how much you drop your shoulder and how much pressure that you apply to your foot peg. More drop and pressure will tighten your line.

By starting out on the outside of the lane and dropping into the turn later will allow you to have more of the lane to use to make adjustments to your position in the lane as your turning. Done properly, you wont have to make adjustments at all once your in a leaning position and into the turn approaching the apex.

By dropping your shoulder, your moving a lot of weight of your body into the turn, similar to hanging off the bike.

This is more pronounced on a lighter sportbike than it is on my BMW. While riding my Ducati I find that it's much easier to apply pressure to the pegs than my BMW and the bike responds quickly by turning in without any or very little input to the handlebars.

[Les is more]

You want to be able to see as far through the left hander as possible which means staying out longer. You don't want to be trimming that yellow line until you can see what's coming at you around that corner. A motorhome pushing or crossing the double yellow, when you're leaning over that line can be a nasty surprise, leading to some unplanned mid-course corrections or a very close haircut!!

[MWS]

I do Set up wide on turns that are blind, just for that reason, but when I was on sweepers, and had a good view of the next turn or two, I would be trying to stay closer to the centerline.

Don't ask me why, or how, but I just seemed to pick this habit up within the last month or so.

I think maybe it was so I would be setup more toward the centerline to "flatten" out the next right hander.

 

Thanks for the inputs, I'll go back to the 'ole "Use the whole lane" technic.

 

Now that the bottom is dropping out weather wise at the end of the week, I'll have to relearn it next spring.

[Whip]

Ya know how much I hate to say this but........ The Lawman's right when he says

 

"I think it's the fear of leaving the pavement that screws me up.."

 

When chasin Richard through Sweeper Madness in Torrey it happen to me.....(it didn't help much when both tires let loose at the apex)...I started to get fixated on the soft shoulder and bad thoughts kept jumping into my pea size brain and I started huggin the inside on lefties....Tom(azkaisr) has a video of the result......Since then I started practicing riding in the right wheel rut through lefties and my confidence is comin back. (could be the Avons)

 

 

Whip

[MWS]

It's the Avon's!

[2slo]

I have started to stay in the right tire track through left turns as well. This really makes me feel better when an unexpected cage pops up in the oncoming lane. The key to a smooth arc through left turns for me is to be more specific about where I plan to be. I look to the vanishing point but also plan to be in - and look to - the right hand track of my lane. This makes my turn in more precise and I usually don't have to adjust my line. Fear of the outside edge has sometimes been a problem for me too. To combat this I do a lot of riding in the righthand track when there's no traffic - in traffic I move around alot to be in the safest place.

 

2slo