Twisties Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 At 12,000 miles I changed tranny and FD fluids on our RTs. The lubricants crawled down a funnel and tube into their appropriate reservoirs. I had to hold the funnels and tubing the whole time. I'd say this took a half or 45 minutes each, and with two bikes I was vowing to find a better way for next time. Been looking ever since. I was thinking a large plastic syringe. Someone here mentioned a bottletop pump from Walmart. Well, Walmart didn't have the item, although it turned out my own brother has one down in Florida, so they must have had them once. Checker had none of the above. I had a report that an industrial supply would have large syringes, no luck. I talked to several bike shops that sold oil, nothing. Super Target, nothing. Repeated and persistent internet searches, nothing. Finally, NAPA, a twofer: Sta-Lube SL4344 and also the Valvoline VV818, which I could not find on the internet. It's similar to the above, but a little lighter in build and sized for a standard oil bottle mouth. Then from out of the depths of the garage, Sharon pops up with this: Flotool "The MixMizer" 10111 Apparently also available at ACE, although packaged differently. So, I'm thinking the Sta-Lube product for the tranny, and The MixMizer for the FD. I figure I can calibrate The MixMizer syringe for accurate delivery of 240 mls to the FD. Use of a syringe is really the only way I can think to accurately fill an FD. I'll be giving it all a try in the next few days. Whatcha think? Link to comment
johnlt Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Jan, no matter what you use, if you heat the fluid in the microwave to decrease the viscosity, it will flow much better. Link to comment
Quinn Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I kept thinking "turkey baster." Your way is better. Link to comment
smiller Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I think you should use what people have been using for about the last 100 years for this job (a suction gun), then just fill to the bottom of the fill hole and go riding. But then again it has been conclusively proven that I'm not nearly anal enough to give advice concerning BMW maintenance. Link to comment
russell_bynum Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Sta-Lube SL4344 I have a similar pump that I use for filling the manual trans and diff on my 3-series. The main gripe I have with it is it is messy when you have to switch bottles (i.e. when you need more than 1Q) because the end that goes in the bottle is covered and dripping with oil. I always set everything in a large catch pan so it doesn't run all over the floor, but it still makes a mess, gets all over the bottom of the bottles, etc. For measuring a precise amount of lubricant, I've got a clear funnel that has graduated markings on it. At the bottom of the funnel is a shutoff valve, and then there are an assortment of fittings you can attach below that to meet your needs. Install the appropriate end, close the valve, fill the funnel to the appropriate mark, put the end in the fill-hole, open the valve. Gleno kept a pitcher doohickey for that purpose, pour the oil from the containers into the pitcher to the appropriate level, then just pour whatever's in the pitcher down the funnel of your choice into your transmission/final drive/whatever. Link to comment
Twisties Posted March 9, 2009 Author Share Posted March 9, 2009 Jan, no matter what you use, if you heat the fluid in the microwave to decrease the viscosity, it will flow much better. I have thought of that John, but am concerned that it will result in an underfill, since the warm fluid will be less dense. Presumably the fill criteria are for room temperature fluids, although this could vary a fair bit. I was thinking a slight amount of warming, to the upper end of room temp, maybe about a 100 F, might be a good idea though. Link to comment
Twisties Posted March 9, 2009 Author Share Posted March 9, 2009 Now how come I didn't run across one of those! Looks like a syringe to me. Perfect for the job. Link to comment
russell_bynum Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Now how come I didn't run across one of those! Looks like a syringe to me. Perfect for the job. I just remembered...I've got one of those as well. Works OK, but you still wind up making a mess (or at least...I do). Link to comment
Twisties Posted March 9, 2009 Author Share Posted March 9, 2009 For measuring a precise amount of lubricant, I've got a clear funnel that has graduated markings on it. At the bottom of the funnel is a shutoff valve, and then there are an assortment of fittings you can attach below that to meet your needs. Install the appropriate end, close the valve, fill the funnel to the appropriate mark, put the end in the fill-hole, open the valve. Well, first of all I'm trying to get away from a funnel to something that I can force flow with because the gravity transfer rate is tooooooooo sloooooow. Second, this is not a precise way of measuring the fluid that is delivered to the bike (unless you use the difference of two points in the funnel), because of losses due to lubricant adhering to the funnel and tubing. In chemistry we are concerned with "To Contain" and "To Deliver" calibrations. From what you are saying I believe you are using a "To Contain" calibration in a "To Deliver" situation.... though I might have misunderstood you.... P.S. I love analyzing haircuts! Link to comment
Effjay Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Jan, I took a tip from JVB's tech video and bought a couple of graduated squeeze bottles from a local beauty supply store for $2.99 each. They are translucent and have raised graduations through 250 mls. From the supplier label, here is a link: Luxor # 2509 Jeff Link to comment
Tony_K Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Well, first of all I'm trying to get away from a funnel to something that I can force flow with because the gravity transfer rate is tooooooooo sloooooow. Second, this is not a precise way of measuring the fluid that is delivered to the bike (unless you use the difference of two points in the funnel), because of losses due to lubricant adhering to the funnel and tubing. In chemistry we are concerned with "To Contain" and "To Deliver" calibrations. From what you are saying I believe you are using a "To Contain" calibration in a "To Deliver" situation.... though I might have misunderstood you.... Damn, I LOVE BMW riders!!!! Link to comment
russell_bynum Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Well, first of all I'm trying to get away from a funnel to something that I can force flow with because the gravity transfer rate is tooooooooo sloooooow. Second, this is not a precise way of measuring the fluid that is delivered to the bike (unless you use the difference of two points in the funnel), because of losses due to lubricant adhering to the funnel and tubing. In chemistry we are concerned with "To Contain" and "To Deliver" calibrations. From what you are saying I believe you are using a "To Contain" calibration in a "To Deliver" situation.... though I might have misunderstood you.... Damn, I LOVE BMW riders!!!! Jan, don't forget to correct for volume differences due to atmospheric pressure. Link to comment
Twisties Posted March 10, 2009 Author Share Posted March 10, 2009 Oh good, we're already to the humor part. That didn't take long! Link to comment
Polo Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 I think you should use what people have been using for about the last 100 years for this job (a suction gun), then just fill to the bottom of the fill hole and go riding. But then again it has been conclusively proven that I'm not nearly anal enough to give advice concerning BMW maintenance. You aren't anal enough? If you need lessons take a look at the thread going on about WASHING THE BIKE they are discussing the lenght of the q-tips that should be used at the different parts of the bike, whether wooden ones vs plastic, the tensile strenght of the terry cloth, etc., etc., ad nauseam... I use a funnel I bought at WalMart with a plastic hose that fits inside the fill hole. The tranny is most difficult, but with a little patience, and the help of a rigged tripod you can pre-heat the oil in the microwave and pour it down the funnel. The density may vary, but not the volume. Then use the old eyes and see if it's at the bottom of the fill hole, if it isn't pour a little more, if its over, use a rag after it spills. I'll be doing that this weekend. Link to comment
Polo Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Jan, no matter what you use, if you heat the fluid in the microwave to decrease the viscosity, it will flow much better. I have thought of that John, but am concerned that it will result in an underfill, since the warm fluid will be less dense. Presumably the fill criteria are for room temperature fluids, although this could vary a fair bit. I was thinking a slight amount of warming, to the upper end of room temp, maybe about a 100 F, might be a good idea though. Filli it up, go have a cup of coffee, or a beer, come back and check the level fill up if needed, otherwise you're done. Link to comment
eddd Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 I used the turkey baster when I changed mine in October, but I have to admit that Thanksgiving dinner wasn't too good this year. Link to comment
Tony_K Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 I used the turkey baster when I changed mine in October, but I have to admit that Thanksgiving dinner wasn't too good this year. These are the jokes folks... We'll be here all week! Link to comment
CoarsegoldKid Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Gravity is stronger here, at least I hear that from the older gents. When I changed my tranny fluid the new stuff flowed down the funnel and clear tub quickly. Measuring wasn't much an issue either because .9 liters according to the manual is just shy of 1qt(.948 liters). The hard part was cleaning up the mess made when almost all the old fluid ended up on the floor of the garage. The garage floor now has clean area of about 2sq.ft. Link to comment
flat_twin Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 I like the suction gun. Might have to get one of those. I've been using a Valvoline bottle that the 80/90 weight gear lube comes in. It has ml measurements on the bottle. I pour off the excess so I don't have to stop and measure once I start filling. I shove a length of rubber fuel line over the bottle tip, stick it in the transmission fill hole and squeeze the bottle. Easy!! Link to comment
PiddleFart Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 I use a clear ketchup bottle that I found at WAL-MART. Cut off the tip and slide a piece of clear tubbing over the end, measure out 230 ml of fluid in a graduated measuring cup and pour it into the bottle. Make a mark on the side of the bottle at this level and your good to go. Next time you change your final drive just fill the bottle to the mark. I have an 06 RT and if you fill it through the drain hole at the 9 0'clock position about 3/4 full and then top off through the ABS sensor it goes alot faster. Good Luck! Link to comment
Redbrick Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 This is probably not news, but this is what we use for the final drive.....Got the idea from Jim VonBadden's DVD....... Picked it up at a beauty supply store (about $3, I think) and it is graduated to 250 ml's so you can measure 240 right into the bottle.....Perfect for final drives........The angled spout makes it pretty easy to squeeze the fluid in the speed sensor hole......... Link to comment
Fightingpiper Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 This is probably not news, but this is what we use for the final drive.....Got the idea from Jim VonBadden's DVD....... Picked it up at a beauty supply store (about $3, I think) and it is graduated to 250 ml's so you can measure 240 right into the bottle.....Perfect for final drives........The angled spout makes it pretty easy to squeeze the fluid in the speed sensor hole......... Exactly what I use.... Link to comment
Shaman97 Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 As an aside to this... Make sure you have an accurate torque wrench when tightening the drain plug for the final drive. Helps ensure it stays attached after 100 miles. DAMHIK Link to comment
hopz Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 On my Tranny... I use a funnel and clear plastic hose. Zip tie the funnel to a convenient spot and pour. As he said, it may take a little bit but gravity generally works... Link to comment
barryNmarin Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 I use the funnel and hose with no problem and after I heat up the juice in the sun for an hour or so it slides down the tubing pretty fast. Never had a problem with under filling with the heated fluid expansion. Link to comment
Twisties Posted March 10, 2009 Author Share Posted March 10, 2009 I just ordered a couple of suction guns. I found the funnel method tedious and messy. For the tranny you fill until oil comes out the fill hole, ok, fine. If you heat it and then top off after it cools, ok fine. No need to measure anything. I am concerned about the FD though. The specified new fill and refill amounts are different to account for the volume that doesn't drain, e.g. sticks. This suggests that the volume needs to be somewhat precise. When I did this last time we used a beaker to measure the 240 mls and then used the funnel and tube through the speed sensor hole method to fill. Aside from it taking forever, it was messy, and there was no way to account for volume stuck to the beaker, funnel and tubing. I added an extra 10 ml, but that was a WAG. The difference between to contain and to deliver becomes significant when dealing with highly viscous materials such as gear lubricants. I really think a syringe type device is the only way to fill an FD properly. Because there is no way to check fill level, I would not heat the lubricant much, certainly not above 100 F, before delivery. I expect the syringe to be relatively neat, accurate, and fast. Just my opinion, and what I'm gonna be doing. YMMV. Link to comment
Polo Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 This suggests that the volume needs to be somewhat precise. I've been somewhat jocular about this subject, but I see that quite a few of the proponents of accuracy own hexheads. Is there something that radically different from oilheads? My cavalier position is based on the assumption that both the Tranny and FD are self contained elements and lubrication is by contact, so the volume can vary as long as there is enough and of adequate viscosity so the lower part of the gears pick up the oil from the bottom of the reservoir and remain lubricated as th eoidl sticks to the gear during its rotation. No? If there's a variation of say 25 ml, how severe an impact can it cause? Link to comment
Twisties Posted March 10, 2009 Author Share Posted March 10, 2009 This suggests that the volume needs to be somewhat precise. I've been somewhat jocular about this subject, but I see that quite a few of the proponents of accuracy own hexheads. Is there something that radically different from oilheads? My cavalier position is based on the assumption that both the Tranny and FD are self contained elements and lubrication is by contact, so the volume can vary as long as there is enough and of adequate viscosity so the lower part of the gears pick up the oil from the bottom of the reservoir and remain lubricated as th eoidl sticks to the gear during its rotation. No? If there's a variation of say 25 ml, how severe an impact can it cause? In general I agree, but I don't know what's in an FD or how it's designed. I do know that BMW chose to distinguish between an original dry fill and a refill... 10 mls... in hexheads. I'm simply assuming therefore that BMW feel that 10 mls are significant in the FD application. In part, at least, you should probably look at relative error. In other words a difference of 25 mls in a 1000 ml tranny is 2.5%. 25 mls in a 250 mls FD is 10%. Since it's easy to use a syringe (suction gun), that's my plan. Whether it's necessary or not is over my head. If it was a $100 tool, then maybe not, but now that I know what it's called, there will be one delivered to my door in two days for $10. As I said, I'm hoping it will be less messy and faster too. Sounds like a good deal to me. With FD's being at issue, I prefer not to create any excuses for denial of warranty coverage. Again, I won't be suggesting that anyone who does it another way is wrong, stupid, or careless. I won't think less of you at all. I'm just saying what I decided to do on our bikes and why I think it's a good idea. Link to comment
T__ Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 clip~ If there's a variation of say 25 ml, how severe an impact can it cause? Polo, I don’t know how critical the F/D oil level really is.. Might be & might not.. With all the BMW final drive problems who wants to chance it.. There is speculation that the BMW R1200 final drives are not vented to atmosphere.. I can’t say if that is true or not.. I will find out next time I change the gear oil in my R1200RT final drive.. If that is true then overfilling could cause an excess pressure build up in the final drive as it heats up & cause a seal to leak or tighten up a seal on it’s shaft.. On the other side there needs to be enough gear oil in the final drive to have some left in the sump while riding off on a cold final drive.. Cold gear oil tracks with & sticks to the crown gear,, sticks to the inside of the gear case above the normal gear oil level,, packs into the high casting pockets,, etc.. As long as there remains enough to lubricate the gear set & bearings then probably no harm if a little low.. But what if a little leaks out the external seals while riding,, or into the torque tube & a rider doesn’t see it? BMW is pretty specific on final drive oil level & with so little oil actually in there to begin with why chance it as it isn’t rocket science to do it correct to begin with.. Twisty Link to comment
tomk99r11 Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 40 - 45 min?! Good grief, I spend only a couple of minutes on each refil on my RT. Link to comment
SageRider Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 40 - 45 min?! Good grief, I spend only a couple of minutes on each refil on my RT. Your RT has a drain plug. The early R1200s do not as the fill was supposed to be "lifetime" Link to comment
Polo Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Polo, I don’t know how critical the F/D oil level really is.. Might be & might not.. With all the BMW final drive problems who wants to chance it.. Strong point! There is speculation that the BMW R1200 final drives are not vented to atmosphere.. I can’t say if that is true or not.. I will find out next time I change the gear oil in my R1200RT final drive.. If that is true then overfilling could cause an excess pressure build up in the final drive as it heats up & cause a seal to leak or tighten up a seal on it’s shaft.. And shaft seals don't leak, right? Perhaps someone can clear up that speculation? But I see your source of concern. As I said, I don't own a hex, so I am unaware of differences like this, which would be significant. BMW is pretty specific on final drive oil level & with so little oil actually in there to begin with why chance it as it isn’t rocket science to do it correct to begin with.. Twisty If you perceived any criticism from me, be assured that it's directed at BMW's flair for the dramatic, not at you. It really doesn't cost you much to do it to the point where you're comfortable and secure that you've done your best. After all it is your baby, as much as my bike is mine. Have a great time doing it! Link to comment
tomk99r11 Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 Ah, you are so right and I stand corrected. Thanks. Link to comment
Bullett Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 40 - 45 min?! Good grief, I spend only a couple of minutes on each refil on my RT. Your RT has a drain plug. The early R1200s do not as the fill was supposed to be "lifetime" And Twisties had to hold the funnel last time! Link to comment
Twisties Posted March 12, 2009 Author Share Posted March 12, 2009 You'll notice some were wearing coats. Mine was on and off, off in that shot. Bob's was on. It was cool. We didn't heat the oil. Yep my recollection was a long long time. I didn't time it, but my arm was falling off. At least a half an hour each. Live and learn. Link to comment
hopz Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Yes, I checked the garage yesterday and sure enough your arm was laying down there under the bench... Seriously. I remember how long it took. I my arm was getting tired too. (By the way... I went to Industrial Supply and they have all the syringes you want. The clerk you interfaced with must have been a newbie. I will bring mine tomorrow.) Link to comment
ghaverkamp Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 I'm a little late, but I just wanted to note that I, for one, don't believe in putting oil in final drives. Link to comment
SageRider Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 I'm a little late, but I just wanted to note that I, for one, don't believe in putting oil in final drives. Link to comment
dave sawyer Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Here what I do. I use Mobile One in my trans. and final drive. I take a 6 inch section of 1/4" clear tubing and push it over the tapered spout. Turn bottle upside down, insert tube into filler hole and squeeze lube into trans/final. If you want a specfic amount, just measure and when the bottle is empty you're all full. Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 My wife's a nurse. She brought home a nice big syringe for me, 50mL, which works absolutely perfectly for this job. Hit up your nurse or doctor next time you see him / her! -MKL Link to comment
boatzo Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 My wife's a nurse. She brought home a nice big syringe for me, 50mL, which works absolutely perfectly for this job. Hit up your nurse or doctor next time you see him / her! -MKL My wife did the same for me. I also use those syringes for a myriad of tasks including mixed epoxy and injecting it in boat deck cores. Link to comment
Nice n Easy Rider Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 My wife's a nurse. She brought home a nice big syringe for me, 50mL, which works absolutely perfectly for this job. Hit up your nurse or doctor next time you see him / her! -MKL Moshe, The syringes used in medical situations usually have rubber end pieces on the pistons that can swell when exposed to oil. When we immunize animals we use oil-based adjuvants and we always use glass syringes for the above reason. For a single use it should be fine but I wouldn't plan on using it multiple times. Link to comment
Twisties Posted March 19, 2009 Author Share Posted March 19, 2009 Well, I'm happy to report that the job is done, and the RT's are sitting in the blocks, raring to go in the morning for Tejas! The Mixmizer (link in first post) turns out to be a 60 ml syringe designed for oil based products. Was a little hard at times, but worked great overall, and 60 worked out just right for filling the FD in 4 goes. The Sta Lube product made the transmission job a dream. Thanks for all the help! Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 Moshe, The syringes used in medical situations usually have rubber end pieces on the pistons that can swell when exposed to oil. When we immunize animals we use oil-based adjuvants and we always use glass syringes for the above reason. For a single use it should be fine but I wouldn't plan on using it multiple times. It's been almost three years on this plastic syringe, servicing our 4 bikes over that time for a combined mileage of somewhere around 75,000 miles, and it's still doing its job perfectly. -MKL Link to comment
Nice n Easy Rider Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 Moshe, The syringes used in medical situations usually have rubber end pieces on the pistons that can swell when exposed to oil. When we immunize animals we use oil-based adjuvants and we always use glass syringes for the above reason. For a single use it should be fine but I wouldn't plan on using it multiple times. It's been almost three years on this plastic syringe, servicing our 4 bikes over that time for a combined mileage of somewhere around 75,000 miles, and it's still doing its job perfectly. -MKL Do you by any chance remember the brand? Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 When I get home today, I'll see if there's anything written on it and I'll report back. -MKL Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 OK, it's a 60mL (not 50 as previously reported) brand "B-D". The only other marking on there says "N-5." Not sure what that means, but hope it helps.... -MKL Link to comment
CoarsegoldKid Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 Well, I'm happy to report that ... Sta Lube product made the transmission job a dream. So tell me or show pictures on how you prevented a big oily mess under the trans when you removed the drain bolt. Try as I might most trans fluid missed the tray my a country mile. Maybe I should have put the center stand in the tray! Link to comment
Fightingpiper Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 Well, I'm happy to report that ... Sta Lube product made the transmission job a dream. So tell me or show pictures on how you prevented a big oily mess under the trans when you removed the drain bolt. Try as I might most trans fluid missed the tray my a country mile. Maybe I should have put the center stand in the tray! Here is a pic from Jim Von Baden's site and is what I did. Use a long funnel... Link to comment
flat_twin Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 That's how I do it also but the funnel I use is shallow and oblong in shape with the drain at one end. It allows you to tuck the funnel up under the trans drain lip, wedge the funnel inside the brake lever and the funnel drain clears the exhaust with no drips. This funnel is very similar. http://www.farm-home.com/images/jb63/20236063c.jpg Link to comment
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