Garmin nuMaps

[Perlova]

Has anyone purchased the unlimited nuMaps yet from Garmin? It indicates that a 2010 City Navigator is available but they don't have the sample maps up on their website.

 

Not sure if there is a substantial enough change to warrant the purchase.....

[ckatopodis]

I purchased nuMaps Lifetime from Garmin for my BMW Navigator III. I have lots of trouble installing it so far. The initial download takes 40-50 minutes. I've had to download it three times so far (file corruption errors). The decompression/extraction program takes 30-40 minutes to run. After extraction, the installation to the GPS and to the PC takes 2-2.5 hours. I have run the extraction and installation three different times. Each time the program finishes with a message saying the GPS is properly loaded but the PC is not. When I check the GPS database, it is the new version. When I check in Mapsource, the new update database is not available. I have been in email contact with Garmin. So far what they have suggested does not work. I have a new set of instructions from them, but have not had the time to try them out yet. I am glad that the GPS has the new database, but am concerned about what problems will arise if I try to load routes to the GPS that were created with Mapsources older data base.

[Perlova]

That does not sound good. Perhaps asking for a CD might be the better approach.

 

Looks like you are doing a lot of Beta testing for Garmin.

 

On your GPS have you noticed any new routes or roads that were not previously there?

[Boffin]

I have the UK and Europe Nu-Maps, the download and install took an age but went OK. I was then able to download the same mapping to install on my laptop. So, try a re-download then re-install.

FWIW, I forgot to check the map setting on Mapsource and over the Easter weekend planned, tweaked and downloaded two route to the updated Zumo using the old Mapsouce file. What alerted me to the slip-up was that the Zumo took longer than usual to 'calculate' the route, which then went on to work fine, taking note of new roads en-route.

 

Andy

[nbooth]

Garmin should consider making this a hosted application...

[ckatopodis]

I had the time to go through the steps Garmin sent me. These steps bypassed the normal loading sequence and loaded the new database to the pc and Mapsource only. It was successful. I've asked if I will have to load maps this way in the future. I now have the new database on both the pc and the GPS.

[ednowicki]

I have the lifetime nuMaps and think it's a good deal. My experience is to wait a week or so after the maps come out because last time and my original purchase update there were bugs at garimin's end that needed to be worked out.

 

 

[Kenn45]

I purchased nuMaps and have updated twice. I was not able to do it from home. My wireless "high speed" connection was too slow, so I took my MacBook to work. The actual download took about 15 minutes, and it took 45 for the install to the Zumo 550. All went well both times.

 

The first time I updated, I downloaded a second time because I wanted to update the map in MapSource on my home PC. I had to connect the Zumo, but I bypassed the Garmin install wizard and did a "save as" to a flash drive. I was then able to install the map on my home PC. So far, I have not bothered to do that with the 2010 version. I expect to just use the Mac and Road Trip. If I change my mind, I expect I can download to the flash anytime.

[NJRTrider]

I had the time to go through the steps Garmin sent me. These steps bypassed the normal loading sequence and loaded the new database to the pc and Mapsource only. It was successful. I've asked if I will have to load maps this way in the future. I now have the new database on both the pc and the GPS.

 

I realize this is an old thread but can you please post or PM me the steps Garmin said to use to load the maps on the PC for mapsource and the gps.

 

Thanks!

 

 

[der Wanderer]

Garmin is a monopolist. They have a controlling market share of the GPS device market and they use it to sell linked software and maps that on their own right nobody would purchase (as compared, say, with MS Streets and Trips). They have proprietary formats that they do not publish for use by third party mapping companies. They don't care how difficult it is to install or use their maps...

[Mark K]

I believe Garmin (and almost everyone else) gets their maps from Navteq, so if there is to be any monopolistic finger-pointing, it shouldn't be aimed at Garmin.

 

I have the nuMaps lifetime updates and haven't had a problem thus far; but I will say their software sucks in general. That said, I wasn't aware their software was available for purchase separately. Assuming it is, why would you buy it if you don't have one of their units?

 

.......this coming from a longtime S&T user.......

[NJRTrider]

Thanks ckatopodis for the email. Mapsource is now fully functional on PC and laptop.

 

As far as Garmin being monopolistic and ripping off its consumers, I totally agree.

 

I understand they are using NAVTEQ software but what I don't get is why do I have to buy the same map product for three different units.

 

I have the GSMAP 60CX for dual sport riding, an old Streetpilot 2720 for the R1200RT and a Nuvi770 for the car (gift).

 

But I don't understand why I have to purchase numap life for each unit at $119 a pop. Just seems unfair.

 

You should be able to buy one map product and load it onto any GPS that you register in your name on the Garmin site.

 

Hopefully Navigon and TomTom will eventually pressure Garmin to be competitive with their map products.

[wbrissette]

I understand they are using NAVTEQ software but what I don't get is why do I have to buy the same map product for three different units.

 

It's similar to how Microsoft requires a separate license for each computer (or VM environment). If you want multiple installations, you have to purchase that type of license. That's what is really missing from the Garmin side of things. Those of use who own multiple units and thus have multiple copies of the software (some NT, some not NT because the NT versions don't work on the older units). I have found that most of the current updates are useless. I had to send in my Zumo 450 for repair. When they shipped a replacement unit back, it had older software on it than the one I send in for repair. However, they also enabled me to download a newer version of the software. In this case, it was the 10 version of the software, instead of the 2009 that was on the original unit. Now in my RoadTrip (Mac version of software), I have NT & Non-NT 2009 versions, 2010 NT version, and Topo software. I have found little if any real difference between the 2009 and 2010 update. I went looking for some roads that weren't on the v7 or v8 version of the software, but that I knew probably should have been, turns out they also weren't on the 2010 update. Seems some parts of the country simply aren't getting updated as they should (although some new toll-roads nearby were updated. Go figure??

 

Wayne

[der Wanderer]

Mark, I disagree - Garmin has designed its product in a manner where you can't simply use common standard interchange formats (and hence get maps, desktop software, etc, from a third party). No doubt Garmin is using their device advantage to benefit in those connected domains. If you buy a Windows PC you can reimage it with Linux if you want, or get Mozilla, or OpenOffice. How do you do the equivalent on Garmin?

[Mark K]

...I don't understand why I have to purchase numap life for each unit at $119 a pop. Just seems unfair.

 

You should be able to buy one map product and load it onto any GPS that you register in your name on the Garmin site.

 

 

Not so sure about that, but additional products should be discounted.

[der Wanderer]

The "why" has nothing to do with what "should" be (and what is fair and unfair) and all to do with what a monopolist "can" do - i.e. force you to pay. Since you have no choice in terms of the maps you can put in the device, you pretty much have to pay.

 

[Mark K]

...you can't simply use common standard interchange formats (and hence get maps, desktop software, etc, from a third party). No doubt Garmin is using their device advantage to benefit in those connected domains. If you buy a Windows PC you can reimage it with Linux if you want, or get Mozilla, or OpenOffice. How do you do the equivalent on Garmin?

 

 

I'm sure that in the not-too-distant future, it will become possible to do exactly what you're asking. These units are pretty new compared to PCs.

[der Wanderer]

Depends. The only way a monopolist ends its abuse is by being whacked by regulators. This domain is likely too small for regulators to look into it. I see it getting worse before it gets better (if...).

[Mark K]

I disagree.

 

True modern-day monopolies (I'm thinking of my Gas & Electric supplier here in the Midwest, for example) keep their dominant positions specifically through the use of government regulation.

 

Earlier this summer, I spent exactly $168.88 for a one-time map update in my wife's factory installed unit for her car (through Navteq, BTW). That's not much less than I paid for my 2730 refurb with the GXM-30 receiver/antenna. Needless to say, I jumped at the chance to pay much less than that for lifetime updates from Garmin, so I'm not one to go jumping down Garmin's throat.

 

I think there is very healthy competition in the mobile GPS market right now, which explains why prices for these units have fallen steadily and quite rapidly. Otherwise, I wouldn't be able to own one myself!

 

[der Wanderer]

Mark, you are missing my point (and I am afraid you may not be very familiar with the economic, legal and regulator principles underlining it).

 

Let's discard for now the obvious fact that prices are not particularly falling - Zumo price anyone? How do you feel paying the price of 3 desktop PCs for 1 GPS device? Gross margins on PCs are about 20%. I estimate gross margins on a Zumo to 80% or more. That is not healthy competition (and GPS devices market share is actually concentrating right now).

 

My point was that there is linkage between devices (and a controlling market share in devices for Garmin) and software. You don't have a choice of the maps/software you put on your device, and of the price you pay. No competition. Such linkage is abuse of monopoly.

 

Monopoly in itself may not be bad - abuses (such as product linkages/bundling/cross subsidies, as well as other types of abuse such as commercial) is what is bad and illegal. I am not sure you local utility does that. If they do, then it's illegal. Otherwise, I don't understand your point.

 

Garmin is taking advantage of its customers. You may not object to it, but that does not make it right.

[bakerzdosen]

Your obvious fact is not so obvious...

 

I think there is a huge difference between a monopoly and having a product that is deemed by the market to be superior to everyone else's, and charging a premium for it. That's not manipulating the price. That's charging what the market will bear.

 

You compare 3 bargain basement PC's to the price of a high end GPS device. I've seen refurbished Tomtom One's sold for $50 all the time (or as low as $42 A/R.) GPS's just can't get much cheaper than that really... That's 3 or 4 GPS's for the price of one of your PC's. Just because a Zumo isn't as cheap as we'd all like, that speaks more to a lack of competition to a specific product than it does to a "monopoly."

 

Does BMW have a monopoly on motorcycles just because their prices haven't come down to the level of a Hyosung?

 

Now, if you were to say that Garmin has a monopoly on the high end motorcycle GPS business - that's still not entirely true (witness the TomTom Rider II) but it's closer to the truth. There are alternatives to the Zumo. Just because Garmin sells a lot of GPS's (some of which have some unique features that differentiate them from the competition) doesn't make them a monopoly.

 

Garmin makes GPS products - typically higher end ones at that. However, there is A LOT of competition these days . IMHO, the thing that differentiates Garmin is the ability you have to easily and frequently update your maps and their customer service. I would say "ease of use" but I honestly haven't used many other GPS's enough to say they have a clear advantage there.

 

It's a consumer product with a proprietary interface. Do you complain because your television from Sony will ONLY run Sony software on it and thus, you're stuck with the Sony user interface? Pioneer has dumped their Kuro line of TV's. Why? Not because they had a monopoly (though they were THE plasma TV to have if you wanted the best picture) but because they couldn't make money (or enough money) selling them. So they dropped the product line.

 

Garmin has found a niche product (GPS's for motorcycles are anything but mainstream) that they sell for a premium. People are still buying them, so they continue to sell them at their admittedly high price. And they make money. It's obviously a high-margin item, but the market will bear what the market will bear.

 

If you don't like Garmin's business practices, buy elsewhere. Many here have done just that. The fact that you CAN buy elsewhere speaks to the fact that they don't have a monopoly on the GPS market.

 

I think it's wrong that only one company makes the game Monopoly.

- Steven Wright

[der Wanderer]

Bakerzdosen, the thread is getting long... I'll only respond briefly.

Suppose BMW had a controlling market share and that they forced you to buy oil, tires, maintenance, and gear through them. At above market prices of course. That would be tie-in abuse and we would yell.

BMWs having a turn signal on the right handle side and one on the left handle is proprietary interface (well, not quite, but let's assume it's proprietary for the sake of the explanation). That's absolutely ok. Nothing wrong there. You confuse the two...

Garmin is NOT a consumer product with a proprietary interface (or if they are, it's not the issue at hand). The issue is that they force a bundle with complementary products through technological barriers.

Same issue with Windows 15 years ago. Windows having controlling market share (it's never about not having competition, it's about controlling the market). It's not the proprietary user interface that was the issue, it was not providing equal access to other software vendors to sell complementary applications (browsers, productivity suites, etc).

Last I checked, Garmin owned in excess of half of the overall GPS market and much more of the high end. They have a controlling share, by legal definition. How do they use it? If they use technology barriers to close the door to other vendors' complementary products (software and maps in particular) then it's abuse. You can say you don't care, but you cannot say it's not happening. It's exactly the same situation as Windows and Internet Explorer 15 years ago.

[SageRider]

I don't buy this monopoly argument at all.

Nothing is forcing one to buy a Garmin as opposed to a different GPS unit.

The mapping products are integral to the unit, and the units are pretty much useless without the maps. Maps are time sensitive, so updates are needed.

When one buys a Garmin, they are buying the unit and a mapping product. No surprise here. If one doesn't like the total cost of ownership, buy a different GPS.

If Garmin is the only GPS that can do the job, well, then, they deserve to charge a premium price.

Garmin can only charge what the market will bear.

 

[der Wanderer]

Were people anymore forced to buy a Windows based PC rather than say a Mac?

Was the OS and the browser not integral to the PC?

When one bought a PC, did they not buy the unit as a computing and web browsing product?

Did Microsoft not charge what the market would bear?

Are you saying all those years of going after Microsoft were just witch hunts? Or are the gander and the geese not to be treated the same?

 

Bottom line for me now on this topic:

Never argue with idiots, they'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

 

(that's a tongue in cheek)

 

[ghaverkamp]

Never argue with idiots, they'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

 

I lesson I should probably take to heart before responding.

 

Are you saying all those years of going after Microsoft were just witch hunts? Or are the gander and the geese not to be treated the same?

 

I don't think Michael's the best target for that question, frankly.

 

Microsoft was found to have abused it's dominant market position to drive out browser competitors. Microsoft began bundling a "free" browser to drive competing browser makers out of business, to "cut off [Netscape's] air supply."

 

Garmin already ships with maps, which it buys from someone else (Navteq/Nokia). TomTom, another major player in the space, owns Tele Atlas, Navteq's main competitor. TomTom ships with free maps, too. As does Magellan. As does pretty much every other player in the space. I don't think Garmin's bunding maps to choke off TomTom's air supply. They're certainly not choking off the air supply of Nokia, who competes by embedding mapping in their portable devices.

 

How exactly is Garmin like Microsoft, again?

 

What seems to upset you, other than a poor understanding of the various Microsoft antitrust issues and antitrust law in general, is that Garmin will only enable installing maps that it sells to be used on its devices. That's not tying. It's not bundling. And since we're talking about a constant stream of new maps, it's not really even lock-in.

 

And so again, I'm confused. Nothing new there.

[SageRider]

Thanks, Greg.

Well said....

[NJRTrider]

Actually Garmin's business model is very similar to Microsoft's business model.

 

1 Windows copy per 1 PC

 

1 Map product per 1 GPS. (BTW it was previously 1 Map per 2 GPS units for CN_NA_NT V8)

 

If you don't like Windows, get Linux. Linux runs great on most PCs.

 

If you don't like Garmin, buy TomTom, Megellan, etc.

 

I actually applaud Garmin for offering Numaps Lifetime. I think it's a huge step in the right direction. One reasonable price (about $99) for lifetime updates. No longer do you have to shell out an incremental $60 for the latest map each year.

 

I just wish the map was good for 2, 3 or 5 units with an appropriate incremental price increase, (ie multiple GPS unit licensing for a map product), but that's just me.

 

 

 

[Catbird]

I have no comment on Garmin's business practices.

 

I have a Garmin nuvi 350 and a Garmin nuvi 650; both are over two years old and never had any map updates till now. Since I have no intention of replacing either nuvi with a newer model, I decided that Garmin's "nuMaps Lifetime" was the only logical way to stay current with the maps. My only hesitation was in the $120 pricetag required for each GPS unit. After scouting around a bit, I found the "nuMaps Lifetime" cards at Amazon for an advertised price of $99 with free shipping. To my surprise, I was only charged $89 due to some sort of some special promotion.

 

IMO, this was a reasonable price for lifetime map updates.