CANBUS-COMPATIBLE BRAKE FLASHER REPORT

[markgoodrich]

Many of you have been following a thread regarding Road Rocketeer's continuing attempts to manufacture an LED flasher for the CANBUS BMWs. My observations regarding the company are pretty clearly enunciated in the other thread; this thread is about a flasher unit which actually works with our bikes, requires no mechanical or electrical skill to install (I did it, 'nuff said), and works the very first time.

 

Slight background info: I ordered the allegedly CANBUS compatible unit from Kriss about three weeks ago and it arrived without drama just a few days latger. I followed the simple directions, but got the Yellow Triangle of Death on the dashboard along with a bulb-out signal. Kriss, which has been in business for decades, had never really broken into our market, and had only made and sold one unit to a CANBUS-BMW owner, based on his voltage readings. The readings didn't fit my bike, or another. A couple of conversations with George Kriss late the afternoon I tried the first install resulted in, literally, an overnight design of their flasher unit to accommodate CANBUS issues. Overnight. It took the company a few days to create a production model, and I received the first one late last week. My daughter's wedding intervened, so I didn't install the unit until this morning.

 

Three wires; one for hot in, one hot out, and ground, plus a blue pigtail wire for changing the flash pattern to one's personal preference. It works. No LED, instead is uses the dual OEM bulbs, flashing them. In my case I like the default three flashes and on steady, but there are multiple options.

 

 

To install the unit:

 

1. Strip the wrap from around the tail bundle in the area shown on the photo, under the pillion seat (study the surrounding area and you'll figure it out). You want to find a bulge (you can feel it, it's a plastic tubular thing) in the wire bundle, which indicates the split from the ZFE from one wire to the two which go to the twin tail/brake bulbs. You want the black and white wire with the yellow marks every few millimeters (take the taillammp lens off and check the wires where they plug into the bulbs to make sure you know what to look for). Cut the wire. Be brave. [The funny crimps on the wire in the photo are from my original attempt with the didn't-work unit, using a different attaching system; pay them no mind]

 

2. Decide where you want to place the flasher unit (I crammed mine down the left side right behind the pillion seat lock, but there's plenty of room under the tail; I keep a compressor pump in the back and wanted quick access to it). Run the red and yellow/red wires up to your cut wire after making sure you like your unit location, and snip off the excess wire (I didn't do this and of course have a bit of a rat's nest of wires, but that's typical of my not-thinking-ahead). Attach the crimpable spade connectors as shown on the Kriss instruction page. Make sure the ignition is off during all this.

 

3. Heat up soldering iron, and just go ahead and apply it to a finger, get that part out of the way. Don't hold it on the finger too long, because it REALLY HURTS. Crimp and solder the ground wire ring to the ground wire (those types of crimp rings never seem to hold, so I always solder my finger and then the ring). I simply attached the ground ring to one of the screws on the pillion seat frame.

 

4. Cram the flasher unit back into the cranny you've chosen, turn on the ignition, and apply the brake. You should see three short flashes and a steady brake light. Yay!!

 

When the brakes are applied, the bulb-out icon flashes in unison with the flashes, but goes out when the sequence ends. I can live with that. No Yellow Triangle of Death.

 

Everything is just as bright as before the unit was installed. It's not LED-bright, but I like the setup just fine. I ride behind guys with Hyperlights, and they work great in the dark, but I don't ever really notice them in the daylight...just a personal preference.

 

The most difficult part of the entire procedure is getting the package open!

 

I can't say enough good things about Kriss Industries and George Kriss. Instant response. Answers the phone every time. Listens to the customer. Calls back or emails when he says he will. Solves the problem overnight, gets it into production within a couple of days. I'm a completely satisfied customer, nothing more.

 

 

[SageRider]

I'm glad you've found a solution you are happy with!

IMO, A unit that still causes fault errors, even if only while blinking, still has some work to be done. Any fault indication is not the sign of a well designed product.

 

In addition, having to modify the stock wiring harness when not necessary is also a negative.

[JB-BMW]

I'm with Michael. Until it causes no faults and requires no soldering (wires or fingers), I'll wait.

[markgoodrich]

I'm glad you've found a solution you are happy with!

IMO, A unit that still causes fault errors, even if only while blinking, still has some work to be done. Any fault indication is not the sign of a well designed product.

 

In addition, having to modify the stock wiring harness when not necessary is also a negative.

 

Michael, how do you get around having the bulb-out indication, since the bulbs actually go out during the flash sequence?

 

I've hacked into my stock wiring harness for horns, added a relayed fused power block, like practically everyone has done, which also required hacking into the harness to power the relay. I'm not afraid of doing that sort of thing; it's part of dealing with a single-wire system, if add-ons are wanted.

 

I do wish you good luck with Road Rocketeer. I was one of the very first to order one of the Canbus units. The concept is good, but it's now more than eight months and counting, and Kevin still hasn't produced a workable unit. My experience with him and his company remains one of the worst purchasing experiences I've ever had.

[SageRider]

how do you get around having the bulb-out indication, since the bulbs actually go out during the flash sequence?

Exactly the same way that RR must. By providing a steady load which is always there. In the Kris unit, it is actually simpler.

Since they must switch the bulb to off, the same switch could divert power to a resistor when the bulb is switched off. Crude, but it would work.

Does the Kris unit flash completely off, or is the unit flashing from tail light brightness to brake light brightness?

I suspect it goes completely off, which leaves one with no tail light even if only momentarily.

 

I've hacked into my stock wiring harness for horns, added a relayed fused power block, like practically everyone has done, which also required hacking into the harness to power the relay. I'm not afraid of doing that sort of thing; it's part of dealing with a single-wire system, if add-ons are wanted.

No fear here. (Electronics Engineering and Manufacturing background) In this case, it's just not necessary, even for the Kris unit.

 

I do wish you good luck with Road Rocketeer. I was one of the very first to order one of the Canbus units. The concept is good, but it's now more than eight months and counting, and Kevin still hasn't produced a workable unit. My experience with him and his company remains one of the worst purchasing experiences I've ever had.

Not arguing with your bad experience. In your situation, I would be looking elsewhere as well. As stated above. I'm glad you've found something you are happy with.

[markgoodrich]

I should report that this morning I took the bike out and got the flashing yellow fault indicator. I sent George Kriss and email, he responded immediately, said he and his staff are working on it. I realize to some this sounds like the Road Rocketeer experience...unit sent, doesn't work, being fixed.

 

Kriss's actual, true responsiveness is a dramatic difference from the RR experience I had. Customer service experience is a significant aspect of any transaction.

[Ken H.]

I mentioned this in the other thread that is going on about this subject at the moment, but to jump in here to the aftermarket’s defense here for a moment...

 

By this point, some four years into the R1200 series life, there are many different versions of the ZFE module software (the module that controls all this light stuff on these bikes) running around out there. I think there has been something like 11 releases of the software. And experience adapting aftermarket lighting for people has shown me that a lot of the versions behave slightly different in this circuit or that. So the manufactures trying to produce a single spec aftermarket product that won’t set a ZFE module fault in any version of the software are facing a herculean task.

 

I’m not sure consumers with one particular model of bike with one particular version (and usually unknown) of software running on it, expecting the product to work out of the box for everyone, are being entirely reasonable.

 

[SageRider]

Since the circuit apparently is working except for the bulb out warning, it would seem that the one constant being ignored here is the necessity to maintain a load equal to the light bulbs connected to the controller at all times.

The light bulbs are a fixed constant, at least until BMW changes bulb specifications...

[bobbybob]

Since the circuit apparently is working except for the bulb out warning, it would seem that the one constant being ignored here is the necessity to maintain a load equal to the light bulbs connected to the controller at all times.

The light bulbs are a fixed constant, at least until BMW changes bulb specifications...

 

 

Yes--this completely summarizes the issue and places the blame back squarely on the "developers", who obviously have not been able (or not really tried) to duplicate the electrical load of the OEM bulb on a *constant* basis. Just adding a resistor isn't working but it seems they all just continue to experiment with different ohm values hoping to stumble on something (at the user's expense and time). It would appear to my untrained eye that a circuit will need to be developed that changes the load dynamically on the fly to "fool" the ZFE on a constant basis. But that might cost more than a resistor.

[markgoodrich]

Since the circuit apparently is working except for the bulb out warning, it would seem that the one constant being ignored here is the necessity to maintain a load equal to the light bulbs connected to the controller at all times.

The light bulbs are a fixed constant, at least until BMW changes bulb specifications...

 

 

Yes--this completely summarizes the issue and places the blame back squarely on the "developers", who obviously have not been able (or not really tried) to duplicate the electrical load of the OEM bulb on a *constant* basis. Just adding a resistor isn't working but it seems they all just continue to experiment with different ohm values hoping to stumble on something (at the user's expense and time). It would appear to my untrained eye that a circuit will need to be developed that changes the load dynamically on the fly to "fool" the ZFE on a constant basis. But that might cost more than a resistor.

 

Michael's comment is exactly what Kriss is working on, creating a constant load the ZFE needs.

[Ken H.]

Since the circuit apparently is working except for the bulb out warning, it would seem that the one constant being ignored here is the necessity to maintain a load equal to the light bulbs connected to the controller at all times.

The light bulbs are a fixed constant, at least until BMW changes bulb specifications...

Sorry, I’m not buying it. How can an incandescent light bulb be any more of a constant load? It heats, it cools, it’s new, it ages. It’s warm out, it’s cold out. One brand is a bit this way, another a bit the other way.

 

Remember, a bulb dissipates electrical energy in light and heat. Aftermarket mfgs are faced with doing the exact same thing only not producing light in the process (the LED’s aside). They have to duplicate the OEM load by dissipating electrical energy with heat only.

 

[SageRider]

bulb dissipates electrical energy in light and heat. Aftermarket mfgs are faced with doing the exact same thing only not producing light in the process (the LED’s aside). They have to duplicate the OEM load by dissipating electrical energy with heat only.

Funny. I could of sworn that is exactly what I said....

and yes, a bulb's resistance when cold is different than when heated, however the time to heat at the rated power/current level is in the milli-seconds. And the RT's tail/brake light is always on...

And the fraction of power converted to light is negligible in either bulb or LED case. Virtually all the power is converted to heat, a wasted by-product. This is immaterial in any case as the controller has no way of knowing how the power is distributed. In the lamp case, the filament is nothing more than a resistor heated white hot and prevented from total destruction only by the sealed environment in which it is enclosed. In the LED case, once one gets over the forward bias voltage across the device, it appears as a short, thereby requiring the addition of a resistor or equivalent to limit the current.

21W Lamp Specification

These bulbs are manufactured to a specification. The primary item missing from the specification linked above is tolerance. Before I designed a circuit to emulate the bulb, I would want the tolerance, My guess would be 20% or less.

Bottom line: 2 Bulbs at rated voltage dissipate 42 Watts. This is the nominal load that needs to be matched, adjusted for tolerances, and this is the amount of heat generated which must be able to be safely dissipated.

[smiller]

Side note, if Kriss (or any aftermarket product) spoofs the ZFE by providing a constant load even when the bulb is off I hope that device is also designed to detect a failed lamp and 'repeat' that information to the ZFE so the ZFE can light the 'bulb out' panel warning. Otherwise the flasher product would be defeating a desirable safety feature.

[SageRider]

Side note, if Kriss (or any aftermarket product) spoofs the ZFE by providing a constant load even when the bulb is off I hope that device is also designed to detect a failed lamp and 'repeat' that information to the ZFE so the ZFE can light the 'bulb out' panel warning. Otherwise the flasher product would be defeating a desirable safety feature.

Agreed. Especially for bulb circuits. Less so for a properly designed LED circuit as life expectancy is longer and circuit design can reduce the impact of minor (1 or 2 LED) failures.

Amazing how the smart single wire system can complicate what was originally a simple on/off circuit, isn't it???

[Indy Dave]

I finally got the correct harness for my BMW LED tail/brake light. Works like a charm.

[SageRider]

[bobbybob]

On a 600 mile, 2 day trip thru the NC mountains this weekend, I had an epiphany. We (with curb queen on her RT) were following a gaggle of 5 Harley's on a 2 lane back road and every time they braked my eyes were drawn to bike #2 (from the front of the pack), due to his LED brake flasher. EVERY single time--I looked straight at his tail end. Didn't even notice the other bikes brake lights. This was DEFINITELY an LED flasher--you know it by the "crisp" on-off sequence. And man does it get your attention...even if you're looking somewhere else. I remarked to curb queen re. how maybe we need this, and she immediately agreed.

 

Later on, we were again behind a group and one of them had a non-LED brake flasher. Immediately curb queen says over the B2B "that flasher isn't very bright" and sure enough it was a non-LED type. Didn't really attract any more attention than the others in the group.

 

These were both in daylight, not after dark.

Mark--have you ever seen HOW different the 2 types appear? Esp. in daylight?

[markgoodrich]

On a 600 mile, 2 day trip thru the NC mountains this weekend, I had an epiphany. We (with curb queen on her RT) were following a gaggle of 5 Harley's on a 2 lane back road and every time they braked my eyes were drawn to bike #2 (from the front of the pack), due to his LED brake flasher. EVERY single time--I looked straight at his tail end. Didn't even notice the other bikes brake lights. This was DEFINITELY an LED flasher--you know it by the "crisp" on-off sequence. And man does it get your attention...even if you're looking somewhere else. I remarked to curb queen re. how maybe we need this, and she immediately agreed.

 

Later on, we were again behind a group and one of them had a non-LED brake flasher. Immediately curb queen says over the B2B "that flasher isn't very bright" and sure enough it was a non-LED type. Didn't really attract any more attention than the others in the group.

 

These were both in daylight, not after dark.

Mark--have you ever seen HOW different the 2 types appear? Esp. in daylight?

 

How could I have seen how the RR LED setup works? The guy never sent one, working or not. The Kriss unit that's being reworked to calm the CANBUS down is just as bright as the regular brake light. Blinky blinky blinky blinky on, repeat. I agree that I've seen LED lights on other brands, and they're bright. As I've said before, I ride with a couple guys who have HyperLites, and in the daylight, at least, I don't find them very effective. Just my point of view. Literally.

 

This evening I was behind a full-pimp Goldwing, flags, teddy bear, every option one can add, including a brake flasher which "wig-wagged," then flashed the two brake lights in unison, went solid, blinked some more, and may have been in Morse Code. In rush hour traffic, he could be seen more than half a mile ahead. No LEDs.

 

Curb queen? 'Sup with dat?

[bobbybob]

<<>

 

 

 

Curb queen is my wife, Jan's, exclusive top-secret Commander Cody decoder forum alias. It has roots in her early moto days and involves target fixation and a curb. Don't ask.

 

 

My point on the flashers is that it appears (to me anyway) that a flashing LED generates a lot more attention than a flashing incandescent bulb, an almost "strobe-like" effect. So I am now waiting on "someone" to solve the Canbus issues for LED's.

[Indy Dave]

the LED's are super bright. Once I got my BMW Aux LED light wired (but before mounting it) I tested it. WOW! The LED's 'burned' in my vision in the garage. It was mid afternoon and the garage door was up so plenty of light already in the garage - these puppies are BRIGHT!

 

While more expensive, I bought them because the LED coverage was larger than the hyperlights.

[Chad F.]

the LED's are super bright. Once I got my BMW Aux LED light wired (but before mounting it) I tested it. WOW! The LED's 'burned' in my vision in the garage. It was mid afternoon and the garage door was up so plenty of light already in the garage - these puppies are BRIGHT!

 

While more expensive, I bought them because the LED coverage was larger than the hyperlights.

 

I'm sure you will be getting some pictures for us all to see...

 

Chad

[Indy Dave]

Chad ~ yea - I actually took pics of the install and end result. I had to leave town that evening on a trip and left without the camera - otherwise I would have posted them already.

 

I'll get it posted when I return this weekend.

[markgoodrich]

Final update, at least as far as I am concerned: there was a a ten day delay while the Kriss engineer was on vacation. I mailed the original unit shown in the photos back to Kriss last Thursday. They replaced the "microprocessor" and shipped it back to me Tuesday. I received it today and installed it. It works perfectly. The yellow fault triangle is gone.

 

For those who have commented that the flashing "bulb out" icon should not appear, well, it does, very, very briefly, with each flash of the two bulbs. Kriss is aware of the situation and at this time is going to leave the design as is. I'm totally satisfied with the solution. The brief bulb out icon flash is insignificant to me; others will need a more perfect solution.

 

Those of you who have followed the two threads relating to this saga are aware of the inconsistent and evasive and "confused" information coming out of the Road Rocketeer quarter, and are aware I long ago became fed up with their version of customer relations. The contrast with Kriss could not be more stark and dramatic. I have gotten almost instant replies from George Kriss at every turn in the development of the unit, and almost instant turnarounds on complete redesigns of the unit when problems surfaced.

 

I give Kriss Industries six stars out of four for customer service, and four out of four for the product they sold me.

 

I still believe the Kriss approach is superior to the other approaches I have seen, as it uses the OEM lens and bulbs. Assuming the product is dependable, I only have to spend a few bucks to replace a bulb every now and then, instead of replacing an entire unit. I'll agree that LED tail/brake lights are brighter, but I'm confident I'll be seen, and sooner, with the Kriss flasher.

 

I have no financial or other interest in the Kriss company, but George did waive the extra cost of the revised unit for my "assistance" in troubleshooting. So I think maybe I saved twenty bucks or less.

[SageRider]

For those who have commented that the flashing "bulb out" icon should not appear, well, it does, very, very briefly, with each flash of the two bulbs. Kriss is aware of the situation and at this time is going to leave the design as is.

Seems to be a reasonable compromise for a bulb based circuit.

Theoretically it will warn one if the unit is no longer flashing the bulbs while also giving a steady indication when the bulb blows. Keeps Kriss from having to add a load just for the "off" portion of the flash.

Couple of questions:

1) Does the light still go completely out during the flash, or just to tail light dimness?

2)If you are willing to confirm, does the bulb alarm still go on steady if one bulb is disconnected/open during normal non/flashing operation?

 

Thanks!

[markgoodrich]

For those who have commented that the flashing "bulb out" icon should not appear, well, it does, very, very briefly, with each flash of the two bulbs. Kriss is aware of the situation and at this time is going to leave the design as is.

Seems to be a reasonable compromise for a bulb based circuit.

Theoretically it will warn one if the unit is no longer flashing the bulbs while also giving a steady indication when the bulb blows. Keeps Kriss from having to add a load just for the "off" portion of the flash.

Couple of questions:

1) Does the light still go completely out during the flash, or just to tail light dimness?

2)If you are willing to confirm, does the bulb alarm still go on steady if one bulb is disconnected/open during normal non/flashing operation?

 

Thanks!

 

Michael, it appears to me that the bulbs dim, but don't go out...the flash sequence is very fast. The icon on the dash barely "blips." I'm getting ready to go to West Virginia in a couple of days, but if I have time I'll make the sensible check you asked about.