Defective Fabric in Gerbing's Heated Jacket Liner

[NoHeat]

After wearing my Gerbing's heated jacket liner about 40 times, its lining is nearly ruined. The seams are ripped apart due to bad quality fabric and construction. I'm no more careless when donning this garment than any other, but it has fallen apart much faster than any jacket I've ever owned.

 

The product is beyond the one-year Gerbing's warranty, so I'm stuck with it.

 

I emailed Gerbing's customer service, hoping that they can repair it. The reply: "I am sorry, but there is a one year warranty on the wear and tear of the item. I would just recommend that you take it to your local seamstress. As long as the tear is not near a wire than there can be no damage done."

 

I don't know what to do. I've never hired a "local seamstress." I don't know how to find one (the local yellow pages have no listings, and I've never heard of one). I'm not sure if repairing the three rips shown in the photo will solve the problem permanently, anyway, because there are still lots more seams made from the same defective materials that haven't ripped yet.

 

I'm surprised by all this because I had heard good things from satisfied Gerbing's customers. However, it now seems to me that Gerbing's is nothing like Aerostich. By all accounts, Aerostich makes its suits from top-quality materials, and if there is ever a problem with an Aerostich suit you can send it back for repair at a reasonable cost.

 

I'm not sure what I can do, besides replace this defective heated jacket with a different brand. Anybody have a suggestion?

[NoHeat]

Close-up image.

[Firefight911]

My jacket did the exact same thing. Exact!!!! (As it relates to your rip #1. I don't notice I have #2 or #3 at this time.)

 

I also received the same response. Try going to your local dry cleaner. A lot of times, they have someone who can take care of it for you.

 

Mine, unfortunately, was not repairable in this fashion, per my seamstress, as the fabric was frayed out too much and there was not enough there to repair without either adding fabric or creating an ill fitting jacket. Adding fabric would create a rub area due to the seams so I opted to just leave it as is for now.

 

Interesting how both our jackets tore in the exact same way.

 

Maybe Fernando can shed some light and encouragement that the new iteration Microwire jackets have had this addressed this if it is a known issue?????

[elkroeger]

So I guess I don't understand - you've had the jacket for over a year, and you've only worn it for 40 miles? How do you do that?

 

So pardon me if I sound callous, but that's how warranties work: Once in a while something really is defective, and you have a whole year to work it out. Sounds to me like you've squandered your warranty period by leaving the jacket in the closet, and now you're sore about it.

 

One reason not to send it back to the manufacturer is that warranty work commonly means "replacement". Out-of-warranty work translates into "repairs". Beyond the heating wires (which have a lifetime warranty anyway), there is nothing about the jacket that can't be handled by a competent seamstress/tailor, locally, for a whole lot less money. Even building a whole new lining and grafting it into the jacket, would almost be cheaper than paying shipping both ways, and paying for the repair too. Again, there is no reason to do that anyway - it's just a nylon taffeta windbreaker.

 

I can't believe that you've "never hired a local seamstress". You've NEVER had a single article repaired? We're living in two different worlds, my friend.

 

Try this link: http://www.dexknows.com/local/retail/consumer_services/garment_services/geo/c-iowa_city-ia/

 

Personally, I've lived in my Gerbing's from September to May, for 3 years now. 1000s of miles, both on and off the bike.... My left sleeve circuit went out, and they fixed it under warranty, and sent it back in a couple days. I'd rate my experience with their warranty service an "A+".

 

Now's your chance to get some cool royal blue satin with a gold chinese dragon print for your new liner! Or switch to red silk! Now that would be H O T !

 

 

[smiller]

I don't think John was asking for an explanation of how a warranty works, rather just relating his experience. And BTW it was 40 times, not 40 miles.

[NoHeat]

So I guess I don't understand - you've had the jacket for over a year, and you've only worn it for 40 miles? How do you do that?

 

I wrote that I wore it about 40 times -- not miles. I think that a product intended for rugged outdoor use should last much longer.

 

I'm glad to hear that you have enjoyed your Gerbing's jacket and gotten good use of it up there in Seattle.

 

So pardon me if I sound callous, but that's how warranties work: Once in a while something really is defective, and you have a whole year to work it out.

 

I fully accept that's how warranties work. The warranty was not my point.

 

My comments are centered on three points:

* my jacket liner is made from defective materials

* unlike Aerostich, for example, the manufacturer won't repair it, even if I pay for it

* I'm not sure what to do, and suggestions are welcome, including suggestions for other brands.

 

I can't believe that you've "never hired a local seamstress". You've NEVER had a single article repaired? We're living in two different worlds, my friend.

 

Try this link: http://www.dexknows.com/local/retail/consumer_services/garment_services/geo/c-iowa_city-ia/

 

Thank you for your suggestion. I am a little puzzled by the attitude toward me presented throughout your post, but I am grateful for the suggestion.

[Firefight911]

Someone switched to decaf this morning!!!

 

I picked a bad day . . .

[elkroeger]

I am a little puzzled by the attitude toward me presented throughout your post, but I am grateful for the suggestion.

 

Sorry man. I didn't mean to come across as an a-hole. Looks like I stepped in one of the many pitfalls of the typed message...

 

You did reiterate your question though - why won't the manufacturer do the repairs? Because it's a simple taffeta windbreaker, and almost anyone can do it. Go get yourself a seamstress, and a groovy new silk liner. Remember Seinfeld's suede jacket with the candy stripe lining?

[Tony_K]

First off I do not own a Gerbings jacket but from what I can see the liner fabric is either nylon or rayon. Both have reasonably strong tensile strengh BUT if not sewn with the proper technic / stich you get what you have right there.

 

Sewing too close to a unfinished edge of this material with resut in pull out.

 

 

[hopz]

I don't care how many times it was worn, or miles, unless it was excessive, which in this case it was not.

 

That failure is just wrong and they should take it back and make it right. If for no other reason than to figure out why and how it failed and to use that information to make a better product.

 

Their failure to step up suggests that this is not new to them and that they just do not want to repair or replace the large number of jackets out there, or perhaps, management has told the person the phone to take a hard line.

 

 

 

[Selden]

That failure is just wrong and they should take it back and make it right. If for no other reason than to figure out why and how it failed and to use that information to make a better product.

While we don't have all the facts, I tend to agree. I've been buying genuine Leatherman pocket tools since about 1980. One of the jaws snapped on my first LT. Mailed it in, and they sent me a new one. About a year after I bought a Leatherman Wave (still my favorite), the hinges started to loosen up in a way that made a slight, annoying clanking noise when I walked. I mailed it in, and asked if they could tighten the pivot screws. A week later, a new Leatherman wave arrived in the mail, with a modified design that eliminated the clanking noise. As a result of this sort of customer service, I'm a lifetime Leatherman customer -- and advertising it here. Since someone who works with Gerbings is on this forum, perhaps the message will get back to the powers that be.

 

If I ever get a heated vest, it will probably be a Gerbings. Unless I hear of another maker with better customer service.

[motoguy128]

First off I do not own a Gerbings jacket but from what I can see the liner fabric is either nylon or rayon. Both have reasonably strong tensile strengh BUT if not sewn with the proper technic / stich you get what you have right there.

 

Sewing too close to a unfinished edge of this material with resut in pull out.

 

 

 

I think this is the best explination.

 

I personally can't relate as I and my wife use heated vest, which are not prone ot this type of problem.

 

Have you have thsi happen to other heated jackets frm other manufactureres??? Did they fit as tightly.

 

I suggest you consider a heated vest. perhaps Gerbings will give you a significant discount if you ask nicely and explain your problem.

 

 

I think in order to work well, heated clothing needs to fit snugly. Unfortunately, if one isn't careful, or isn't very flexible (old age creeps up on us), you can over stress the seams that hold on the arms as it looks like happened here.

[11101110]

Gerbings are made in China. nuff said. maybe not: I had to send a new controler and new jacket back for repair. I don't know if I will complete my gerbings with their heated pants but if I do I will buy them from a dealer and not mail order.

[der Wanderer]

Gerbings are made in China. nuff said.

 

Hmmm, I don't want to hijack the thread, but that is somewhat oversimplistic, don't you think? Lots of stuff we all use and are satisfied with is made in China. I also own a lot of crap made here and in many other places. Last I checked, the good old US of A were not doing that much better in many aspects of production quality...

 

More importantly, it's not as much where it's made and more what quality metrics and controls are enforced by the (Germany and/or US based, I think) company management. If they have a vendor that produces sub-par quality, their contracting and quality control should deal with that, and if not, their customer care. Hence in this case if there is failure (I don't have enough data to know for sure) it's not toward China that I would point my finger.

[onmyrt]

My Gerbing's jacket has the exact same separation as your #1, except only smaller (for now......) and of course, a year has past since I made the purchase.

[Jazzy]

I bought one of their Cascade Extreme 4 Season Suits (it's not if you count summer as a season - and it's a real sweat box in the summer!) that has their heated liner. Worst purchase I've made, gear-wise. I didn't know they went off-shore when I bought it at the Cycle Gear show. Within a few months, the stitching fell apart all around the Velcro areas and it had to go back. That's when I found they cheapened and gave a lesser warranty out.

 

It is cheaply sewn, and I've sewn my own bags and gear before. The stitching they should have used is a stagger-stitch to lock the fabric's threads, short of them sealing the edges either by fabric glue or heat. Neither of those were used. It's just plain cheaply sewn loose straight-stitch and should not fall apart so soon.

 

I've been very disappointed in Gerbing's gear of the past 3 years. Their repairs take forever and they sew through the quilted fabric to make a fix which defeats the insulating ability as well. I've since moved over to another brand and it hasn't fallen apart yet. Then again, neither did any of the Gerbing's stuff of maybe 5 years ago either.

 

Sad really, but a buck saved is a buck.

 

 

Jazzy

[vizhip]

I've since moved over to another brand and it hasn't fallen apart yet.

 

Welcome aboard, Jazzy...

 

I am curious which brand you moved to...

 

Regards -

-Bob

[Jazzy]

I've since moved over to another brand and it hasn't fallen apart yet.

 

Welcome aboard, Jazzy...

 

I am curious which brand you moved to...

 

Regards -

-Bob

Some Warm & Safe was the most recent purchase. Even Widder was better, but since retired.

 

Here's a photo of the Cascade Extreme pant's liner they fixed after one month ownership and the Velcro sewing ripped out after the first pull. The red shows their two-month sewn fix (Yeah. They lost it too!). The one in blue shows how the Velcro should have been attached as original (not sewn through). I could have done that meager attempt on my sewing machine and in far less time had I known that was their fix. It should have been hand-sewn through and locked to preserve the quilting's thermal ability.

 

My two-cents.

 

 

Jazzy

[Linz]

You asked for an alternative and you've mentioned Aerostich several times. I have their Kanetsu heated vest and it's a great product IMO. You could try that.

 

Linz

[der Wanderer]

Interesting, and certainly changes my perception of the company...

 

Not to beat a dead horse, but those lousy repairs were not done in China... but somewhere right here. It's not were it is produced, it is how little attention is paid to quality.

 

I guess if I ever get one, I'll know to immediately budget for a quality/custom replacement liner!

[EffBee]

John, please check your PM's. Let's get a dialogue going and, even though this is clearly beyond the warranty period, perhaps there is some way in which Gerbing can help. But first we need some information. Like I said, check your PM's.

[beemerman2k]

Hmmm. Puzzling.

 

I have worn a Gerbings jacket liner and gloves for years and countless miles without even a hint of a tear. It never even dawned on me that they might tear as mine are so well made. I bought mine in 2001, maybe that explains the difference in the quality of the workmanship of the clothing?

 

My Gerbings gear is among the toughest gear I own!

 

Oh yeah, and how could I forget my Gerbings socks? I had one of them go bad on me a couple of years after I bought it. I mentioned it to a Gerbings rep at Moto Market in Action, MA (www.Moto-mkt.com) and she replaced my sock right there on the spot with a new one no questions asked! I was merely trying to give her an FYI on the fact that the sock died so quickly; I wasn't expecting her to just give me a new one like that. I'm sure I mentioned this exchange on the board back in 2003 when it happened.

[tallman]

Our experiences, 2 jacket liners , 2 pairs of gloves, one exchange, have all been very positive.

I hope the OP finds a positive resolution.

 

Before "quality" is bandied about it would be good to have some data.

Is the failure rate .01%, 1%, ?

A company doesn't build the reputation, stay in business, and become a benchmark, w/poor quality products, IMO.

Best wishes.

[ednowicki]

I've returned my (2.5yr old) gerbing jacket twice now for the same kind of seam break through. I've always been careful with the jacket but after the first repair.. I was exceptionally careful.

 

After Gerbing made the second repair (which was out of the warranty period), they said this was a one-time for-free repair.

 

Include me as another customer that is frustrated by the poor quality stitching.

 

 

Ed

[EffBee]

John, please check your PM's. Let's get a dialogue going and, even though this is clearly beyond the warranty period, perhaps there is some way in which Gerbing can help. But first we need some information. Like I said, check your PM's.

 

Still waiting to see if we can help. Please check your PM's.

[moshe_levy]

My Gerbings gear is among the toughest gear I own!

 

+1 Mine's going strong since 1999, many tens of thousands of miles, never a problem. Perhaps a bad lot when switching to a new supplier / vendor for stitching or material?

 

-MKL

[smiller]

Mine's going strong since 1999, many tens of thousands of miles, never a problem. Perhaps a bad lot when switching to a new supplier / vendor for stitching or material?

I've seen a couple of similar threads on other forums detailing the exact same problem so it would appear that something is going on, although not sure what. I have a jacket liner that clearly says 'Made in China' on the tag and it has been holding up quite well so I think you may be right, perhaps a bad run or a supplier change. Those kinds of mistakes can happen, the real test is how Gerbing handles it. It's helpful and very appreciated to have 'a friend in the business who can intercede for us but that's not really a comprehensive answer. In order to blunt any negative perception that may come out of this Gerbing needs to determine whether a problem exists and if so come up with a policy that apples to all affected customers, not just those who know somebody.

 

Pending that resposnse my mind's still open, but I will say that I'm a little nervous about that Cascade purchase I was planning this winter...

[RedHot]

My Gerbing liner is about 3 1/2 yrs old and I always ride in the winter so I have a lot of winter miles on it and no tears.

 

I have a friend that bought the Cascade 2 seasons ago and really likes it. Ummm actually, a couple of friends have that jacket, now that I think about it.

 

I think with any product, for the most part you have good, solid, quality but there may be flaws as well sometimes.

 

One IA friend of mine, shipped me his liner and I sewed the rips in it (smaller rips than the biggest one shown here) and it's been fine ever since, so I don't think it would be a big deal to get it fixed.

[Firefight911]

In order to blunt any negative perception that may come out of this Gerbing needs to determine whether a problem exists and if so come up with a policy that apples to all affected customers, not just those who know somebody.

 

Couldn't agree more, especially in light of several people postings similar experiences and only one off line dialog having been requested.

[der Wanderer]

Those kinds of mistakes can happen, the real test is how Gerbing handles it. It's helpful and very appreciated to have 'a friend in the business wink who can intercede for us but that's not really a comprehensive answer. In order to blunt any negative perception that may come out of this Gerbing needs to determine whether a problem exists and if so come up with a policy that apples to all affected customers, not just those who know somebody.

 

As someone who does not own one yet, and is considering getting one, I find myself in complete agreement.

 

There are enough voices saying all is fine in their case, that one can hope the problems are the exception rather than the rule - and that the majority of customers are fine.

 

However there are enough voices saying they have encountered a problem, that it cannot be just a myth. Maybe a messed up batch or series, who knows. And that raises a first concern with the quality control. It's one thing if it happens, but that batch should never reach customers, and design should be altered to become more resilient to production mishaps.

 

The second flag in my opinion is that there are also a disturbingly significant number of people who complain about the service once they encounter the problem, and that it was not made right to them. Big second concern here.

 

Third concern: from my point of view, the offer of a PM to resolve a problem is nice but counterproductive. It comes across to me as a personal one-off and a way to treat the issue behind closed doors. The way to deal with something like this is a public recall or exchange or fix it/make it right program. And, if repairs, repairs that are of the same high standard as the one embodied by the brand.

 

Until then, I will delay any purchase.

[moshe_levy]

from my point of view, the offer of a PM to resolve a problem is nice but counterproductive. It comes across to me as a personal one-off and a way to treat the issue behind closed doors. The way to deal with something like this is a public recall or exchange or fix it/make it right program. And, if repairs, repairs that are of the same high standard as the one embodied by the brand.

 

I've worked in customer service for years, and can tell you that in my opinion, case by case is the only way to handle things without going bankrupt, because "the customer is always right" is often times ass-backwards.

 

My last case a few weeks ago was a technician in Spain to whom we sold product, which he claimed was defective out of the box. I spend thousands of company dollars providing remote support for this unit, frustrating my technicians when they couldn't discern what was wrong. Finally, I had the unit shipped back to us in NJ, at our expense, for an obscene freight bill. Well, turns out the customer forgot to tell us that he dropped our 120 pound UPS 6 feet from his forklift, and only THEN did it start giving him problems. He told me this - AFTER I had spent valuable effort and resources chasing ghosts.

 

I'm NOT saying this is what happened in this case. I repeat, I'm NOT saying there was abuse here. But it's really, really easy for everyone to get on forums and complain about companies' lousy service in public. You find many times that the company was never given a chance to respond. You find other times that the "defect" is actually something the customer caused himself through neglect and abuse. Red flags should go up - but NOT automatically against the vendor. The source must be considered as well.

 

When you've been dealing with this type of thing long enough, you see customer service is much like international politics - no lines in the sand, and many shades of gray. Case by case, one on one. You start a public recall campaign based on a few complaints, and see what crawls out of the woodwork - it's worse than you can imagine, and before you know it your doors are closing.

 

So personally, I listen to each case, on its own merit. If it makes sense to help a loyal customer out, I do it, often at great expense. That's why the company is 45 years old and growing. But after years of listening, I have a pretty good sense of honesty radar, and those professional trouble makers calling for help personify the old Pareto principal - it's cheaper NOT to have them as customers, if you can help it, and I don't mind as telling them as such.

 

-MKL

[smiller]

I've worked in customer service for years, and can tell you that in my opinion, case by case is the only way to handle things without going bankrupt, because "the customer is always right" is often times ass-backwards.

I agree completely, something like a recall shouldn't be expected unless there was a very wide-scale problem, but... if it is determined that there was a limited bad run of product then customers calling and describing that specific issue should be handled appropriately vs. being turned away. That is the hallmark of good customer service.

 

And I also agree that this needs to be given time to play out before any opinions are formed. Give Gerbing a chance to recognize and react, if in fact there really is a problem.

[EffBee]

I’ve posted twice asking the OP to check his PM’s so that we can move toward a resolution. But he’s not responded yet, so I’m going to address some of the issues expressed in this thread.

 

First, warranties are there for your protection. But warranties have end dates and even MORE important, warranties have start dates. If someone does not submit their warranty card, there is no way for a manufacturer to be assured of the start date of that warranty. And frankly, peoples’ memories are always shorter than reality. When someone tells us, “but I only purchased it two years ago,” and we check their warranty start date, it’s usually more like 3 or 4 years ago. It’s not a deliberate deception, but just the way the mind/memory works. So first and foremost, for there to be a warrantable situation, we have to have start and end dates.

 

Beyond that, there is the issue of Good Will. Manufacturers often do (and Gerbings, over the past 36 years, is known for often doing this) extend the warranty period when something is outside of it for a few weeks or even some months, simply because it’s good customer service to do so. If a Gerbing product has been properly sized by the dealer and properly used by the customer, then we’ll often step up and either Good Will the repair at no charge or do so at a reduced price, depending on the issue in question and the time expired. And insofar as the internal electrics of our products, they have a LIFETIME warranty. I’ve seen 20-year-old product come in here and we repair the electrics under warranty.

 

As for the lining coming unsewn, sure there can be a badly sewn batch. But we’ve been using the same factory for years, and it’s very rare. Besides, it wouldn’t show up until it was in use. If this happens during the warranty period, we repair or replace it. If it happens outside the warranty period, we need some information in order to see where the problem lies, because we don’t just want to help the customer get their garment repaired, we also want to find the CAUSE of the problem, so we can end it if it is in any way systemic. To do this, we need cooperation. Out-of-warranty situations can take time, and we appreciate our customers’ cooperation and patience as we work through the issue at hand.

 

In taking a look at the photo provided in this post, there are several things to note. First, this is not a tear, it is a fraying of the polyester lining at the seam. In looking at the depth of the fraying, it is clear that there was more than enough “overlap” used in the sewing of this particular garment. So, what would have caused the fraying to begin, and then continue and continue until it reached the edge of the fabric panel? The answer (based on experience) is pulling tension. This happens when the garment is too small for its rider and its use. Here are some examples of how this can happen.

 

1. The dealer has undersized the customer. I always used to have a customer get on a bike whose riding position most resembled their own (if their own bike wasn’t available), to verify that the fit would still be good when the product was in use. We offer our dealers a multi-hour training course when they sign up. However, dealers’ hourly personnel can change often and once in a while the training doesn’t get passed down. That’s usually NOT the case as most of our dealers are very diligent and love selling Gerbings because it’s generally a trouble-free product. But it can happen.

 

2. The rider’s gains weight (muscle or fat), again causing excessive stress on the seams. This is not unreasonable given that heated clothing should fit comfortably snug (but not tight) in order to deliver maximum performance. Customers don’t tell us they’ve put on 25 pounds. They just want their jacket liner repaired. We repair it if it’s under warranty, and extend Good Will to most people who are just outside their warranty. It’s one of those business costs that we choose to absorb.

 

3. The rider gets a radically different bike, going from (hypothetically) a cruiser to a crotch rocket. The riding position is very different and the stress across the back and shoulder seams has been dramatically increased. This can sometimes cause fraying similar to what is shown in the pictures above (not saying that it did, just explaining). Again, it’s not a product defect, but we usually absorb these costs and warranty these kinds of repairs.

 

The second thing to note about the picture is the substantial size of the tear. This has likely happened over time. Had the problem been addressed earlier, perhaps a smaller repair could have been easily made. Additionally, the tear has made itself evident on two seams in almost the same location. If the fabric was defective, this would be taking place in seams everywhere. However, multiple fraying in the same general location comes from an overstressing in that area caused by improper sizing.

 

I have sent the OP a PM asking him for his chest measurement and a sleeve measurement. Once I get a response from John, I’m going to need to know the size of his jacket liner (the size tag isn't legible in the photo). I will also need his full name, so we can find his warranty card submission and establish how far out of warranty it truly is. And we will proceed from there. If he was fit properly and the warranty expiration is not too far out, then we will extend Good Will and fix the product. If he was improperly fit, then his issue is with his dealer. But even if he has no luck with his dealer, and his warranty has long since expired, we may still be able to offer him a courtesy in the way of a small trade-in value toward a new Microwire Jacket Liner, and we will make sure that we get all the right measurements from him so that it fits him correctly.

 

I know I’ve been rather wordy, but there are many assumptions and conjectures in the posts above. I also want to acknowledge several who displayed the voice of reason. In the end, the facts and reasonable courteous behavior rule the day. It’s how we run this company and if we’re guilty of anything, it’s of being very generous to our customers. That’s why we have the exceptional customer service reputation we have. But before we can be reasonable, or maybe even generous, we need some information.

 

John, help us both out and let's see where we stand and come to a resolution.

 

[Ken H.]

I've seen a couple of similar threads on other forums detailing the exact same problem so it would appear that something is going on, although not sure what.

FWIW, of our two, one (mine) has done the same thing in the same location.

 

But I’m not complaining, I’ve gotten good use out of it and will buy another. I want one with the new heating technology anyway!

 

[Kitsap]

the internal electrics of our products, they have a LIFETIME warranty. I’ve seen 20-year-old product come in here and we repair the electrics under warranty.

 

What a silly idea. A customer walks in the door with a jacket that is WAY out of warranty with no heat to the right arm . The fact that proof of purchase from the original Gerbings location can't be found doesn't matter. Gerbings then spends their own dime to send the repaired liner to my residence. And the damn thing works as good as new. How do they expect me to justify the purchase of a new flat wire unit?! Hi FB

[EffBee]

Hi Wade. Actually, your point is off just a tiny bit. Our products are ALWAYS within warranty when it comes to the internal electrics. We're a 36-year-old company now. I imagine it's possible that 14 years from now someone could send us a garment a half-century old and need an electrical repair, and we'll honor it.

 

BTW, I'm still waiting for the OP to answer my PM or respond in this thread. We're here, ready and waiting to examine the situation in its entirety, and see if there's some way to warrant helping. And even if the liner was undersized by the dealer and is WAAAY out of warranty, we're willing to provide a nominal trade-in discount on a new liner, just for the trouble he's gone through. But so far, no response. Does anyone know how else to contact him? If you know him, would you please tell him that Gerbings is ready to see if there's some way to contribute to a resolution of the issue.

[NoHeat]

I'm still waiting for the OP to answer my PM or respond in this thread.

 

Thank you for your interest. I replied to your PM last night after returning from camping and canoeing with my family in northern Minnesota, and picking my daughter up at camp -- all without internet access.

 

A manufacturer's representative certainly deserves a chance to present his view regarding product quality and the customer experience, and I am glad to hear from you.