How warm is Gerbings liner w/out electric?

[blackyam]

I have a Kanetsu liner from Aerostich that recently gave up the ghost when on a trip. Nevertheless, even though I lost the nice electric heat, the liner did a reasonable job of keeping me from freezing. Now I'm faced with replacing that liner. I have thought about a Gerbing's, but now I'm wondering how warm a Gerbing's may keep me if its electricals should fail. Can you tell me? Thanks.

 

And, of course, which would you buy: Kanetsu or Gerbing's? Thanks.

 

---John.

[moshe_levy]

I'm actually in a great position to answer this, as I've just finished a 3 month long head to head comparison for MCN of a variety of heated gear, including the Airvantage Kanetsu and Gerbing's. I tested both in the lab, and extensively on the road in temps from 15 to 50 (though mostly stayed below freezing). I've been sick for weeks now from spending so much time out there in this cold!

 

The short answer is, there is no liner I tested that comes anywhere near the Kanetsu for insulation with the electrics OFF. The Gore-tex Windstopper exterior, combined with the air bladder fully inflated, is much warmer under all conditions than any liner I tested, assuming electrics are OFF.

 

If that's your primary concern, by all means, get another Kanetsu, or you will be disappointed. However, the other liners I tested (Gerbing's Mircowire and Firstgear / Warm and Safe) each have certain advantages / disadvantages relative to each other, and which you pick depends on what is important to you. For me, the Kanetsu was not what I wanted in a heated liner, despite its strong points mentioned above.

 

I'm hoping for publication in the March issue. Stay tuned - it's a whopper of a test (5,500 words + 19 pictures, if it's not cut down).

 

-MKL

[johnlt]

I have compared an Olympia jacket with the Olympia liner versus the Olympia jacket with the Gerbings liner. No comparison!! The olympic liner is an order of magnitude better that a Gerbings WITHOUT THE ELECTRICS Off. With the electrics on, the Gerbings is warmer.

[JimD]

Are you sure your liner is defective? I have had two people tell me their liner died, when all it was was the connector went bad at the jacket. I repaired both of them.

[blackyam]

JimD, I sent the liner to Aerostich to be inspected. I received this report today:

 

"I received your electric liner in for repair last Thursday and I forwarded it on for inspection. Nick, the gentleman who checked the liner out, found multiple breaks in the wiring and that the pellon material (material that the wiring is attached to) is shredded at the sleeves. This being the case, we are not going to be able to repair your liner."

 

I had bought the liner off this board not very long ago.

 

johnlt, I'm a little confused by "The olympic liner is an order of magnitude better that a Gerbings WITHOUT THE ELECTRICS Off. With the electrics on, the Gerbings is warmer." Maybe I'm not reading it correctly, but did you mean the the olympic is better with the electrics off (not "without the electrics off")?

 

moshe_levy, what were you looking for in a liner that the Kanetsu did not meet? Btw, my Kanetsu is the fleece liner, not the air.

 

Thanks, everyone.

 

---John.

[johnlt]

John. What I meant to say is with no electrics on, just the liners themselves, the Olympia liner is much warmer than the Gerbings.

[moshe_levy]

John-

 

OK, I did not test the fleece, but the Airvantage - this is the one with Gore-Tex Windstopper exterior, and an air bladder you can inflate / deflate to increase / decrease insulation properties. The combination of the Windstopper and the air bladder fully inflated dramatically increased how warm this liner was with electrics OFF, and required a much lower setting on the controller to maintain the same warm temp at a given outside temp as the other two liners I tested - meaning it's much better insulated. The air bladder idea works, in other words. BMW had or has a similar design - I did not test that, but just FYI.

 

What I did not like was that there are no integrated glove power wires, meaning that to run gloves you have to run a separate set of wires up through the sleeves, and either a splitter to run in conjunction with the liner on a one output controller, or the gloves and liner separate to a dual controller.

 

This is hugely inconvenient compared to other liners, which have the power wires for the gloves integrated into the sleeves, yet still allow for individual control of the gloves and liner (if hooked to the controller accordingly).

 

I also did not like that there were no exterior hand warming pockets, meaning off the bike there is nowhere to stuff your hands in the cold. Again, the other liners have this feature.

 

I don't want to give away too much of my test as that would be unfair to MCN, but suffice it to say, all liners get warm, and all of them are infinitely more comfortable than my 10 year old heated gear. The difference is not in which gets warm, because frankly they all do. The difference is in the details, such as the wiring convenience as I described above.

 

If the glove wiring is not an issue for you, and certainly if your #1 priority is insulation with the electrics OFF, you will certainly NOT find a better choice than the Kanetsu Airvantage - at least in the batch I tested. Second place with regards to insulation with the electrics OFF is a very distant second.

 

-MKL

[krussell]

I did a comparison of the WarmNSafe Generation 4 liner and the latest Gerbing product here:

 

http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=49779&Number=546907#Post546907

 

I think they are pretty comparable, and getting whatever fits you is most important. They are both very, very, warm. I tried the Kanetsu AirVantage as well, but didn't write that one up. It fit great, the air bladder was very functional, but the heat was dismal compared to the others. It did not keep me nearly as warm as the others. I sent it back.

 

As Moshe points out, the lack of glove power is an issue with the Kanetsu as well, and the insulation properties with no heat are fantastic.

 

If the glove power isn't an issue, I'd recommend trying the Kanetsu and the latest generation Gerbing at the same time. Try them with and without heat, do your own comparison, and keep the one that makes you happy and comfortable. Both vendors offer a 30 day return if you are not happy.

 

Finally, the WarmNSafe product was the thinnest in terms of layering. That, and the fact that it fit me well is why I stuck with it and sold the Gerbing I compared it too. I leave my 'stich fleece in the Darien, and wear the liner underneath. If I have a failure, I still have the fleece to get me home or to somewhere to buy another layer.

[elkroeger]

I've had an aerostich vest. And a gerbing's jacket that I currently use all the time. My two cents is that the aerostich is a better insulating product. I upgraded to the jacket because the vest just wasn't cutting it anymore on the commute. I went with the gerbings because I couldn't get the proper fit with the 'stich. Gerbing's has a much larger size selection.

 

Without the electricity, the gerbing's is just a windbreaker. The tag says "thinsulate", but there isn't much there.

 

98% of the time I wear an OR primaloft jacket over the gerbings. This works out quite well.

[krussell]

FYI, I just got an email from Aerostitch, the Kanetsu AirVantage vest and jacket are 20% off.

[KDeline]

I have lots of Gerbings stuff. Many years ago they made a nice insulated liner that was warm even without electric. Now they seem to be thin and I know not as warm as I have both of them and on the really cold days I take to older, thicker one. In the past they had a regular liner and a thin wired liner. I wish they would go back to that and at least give you a option.

[racer7]

You ask about a failur condition that would be rare. I'd suggest starting instead with your riding conditions.

 

How cold is cold? For myself, I ride into the 20s.At low 40s and below it is nice to have heated gloves even when the bike has heated grips (my 08 RT). To balance those with a jacket, a dual controller is needed. Of course you can use mitts like the Wunderlich, etc and avoid heated gloves entirely.

 

Running a separate glove harness is a pain.

 

 

We use the Gerbings- either the older Signature or current microwire. Either is adequate by itself under a 'stich down to high 30s or a bit less. The Gerbings today are not so good powered off so I also can carry a Windblocker fleece for addition. However, what is more comfortable at that point is my Rev'it Scirocco jacket with both factory liners over the Gerbings. Without heat, the jacket is good into the mid-lo 40s for me.

 

Just add windproof pants and decent boots and that combo is fine on an RT into the high 20s. Doesn't get much colder where I live and if it does there will be black ice...

 

So what is your outer protective gear and how cold will it get where you go?

[blackyam]

Thanks, everyone, for your replies: since my last post: racer7, KDeline, krussel, elkroeger, moshe_levy, and johnlt.

 

I use a two-piece Roadcrafter. Typical winter temps here are lows in the 30s or 40s and highs in the 50s F. I rode through the Tehachappi to Las Vegas overnight during the cold snap in mid-November a few weeks ago, and I was very grateful for the heat from my Gerbing's gloves and Kanetsu liner.

 

I recently bought a pair of Gerbing's gloves off this board. They are fabulous as I don't have much, if any, wind protection for my hands. I have a pigtail for the gloves connected directly to my battery. I run the wire for the gloves through my jacket sleeves. I haven't been able to afford a temp controller, so I use their lighted on/off switch to regulate the heat.

 

As I mentioned, I bought my Kanetsu fleece liner off this board not long ago. I would plug that into the power socket. I couldn't afford to buy a thermostat for that, either, but it never produced much heat to begin. (I didn't think anything of that then, but I wonder now if that was a sign that the electrics would fail.)

 

I did not find it terribly inconvenient that I was not able to plug the gloves into the liner, but then I haven't known any better. However, the apparent convenience of not having to run separate wires for the gloves and liner is one reason I was considering a Gerbing's liner. I have also occasionally wanted hand-warmer pockets in the Kanetsu, which would have been very nice to have, but then I've just stuck my hands in my jeans pockets instead.

 

I have to say that still being able to stay reasonably warm despite the Kanetsu's unexpected failure on a trip earlier this month was nice; not having to carry a back-up non-electric liner means less to pack. And now, because Aerostich is unable to repair my liner, they have offered me an additional 10% off the current sale discount, totaling 30% off the price of a new liner. (I've always found Aerostich to be a top-rated company with which to deal. Count me as a very satisfied customer.) These two reason are tipping the scales for me toward buying another Kanetsu, even though the convenience of a Gerbing's liner because I have their gloves is alluring, too.

 

One thing I didn't consider until it was suggested here was to use a (thinner) electric liner (like a Gerbing's or a Warm & Safe) underneath a non-electric fleece liner I already have. This would reduce the packing, but I'm not sure how comfortable this would be.

 

Thanks again. Any further suggestions are welcome.

[moshe_levy]

Blackyam-

 

If your lowest temp is 30, I can't imagine you would be uncomfortable in a thinner liner under one of Aerostich's windblocking fleeces, or similar. Those are expensive, but they work.

 

Ultimately, I think basing the choice of your liner based on failure of the electrics might not be the best criteria, even though as I said earlier the Kanetsu crushes the competition in that specific test. Just judging by posts on this board and experience, it's not really such a common problem. My own Gerbing's gear is now officially over 10 years old, and still functions well.

 

However, after testing the newer gear from a variety of manufacturers, I recommend replacing older gear with new, because even the worst of the new gear is much better than the old gear. With any technology used today (wires, carbon fiber, Microwire, FabRoc, etc.) the heat is produced faster, to overall higher temperatures, and distribution is MUCH more even (no hot or cold spots). The heating elements are also much more comfortable than before. In addition, newer gear from many manufacturers gives the rider many options not previously available, such as the ability to have gear powered by either your cycle's 12VDC source or lithium ion batteries - so you can use the gear off the bike as well. There are many other advantages too, to make old gear obsolete. I now look at my old gear the same as a 386 computer. Still works fine, but not up to par with the new stuff.

 

In my opinion, after spending all these months below freezing, 30 as the lowest is not cold enough to need anything but the liner and the jacket. Below 20 is when I started looking for an additional layer between the liner and the jacket. Personal preference, but then that's what all of this is.

 

-MKL

[blackyam]

Hello, everyone.

 

Outcome: I won a bid for a Gerbing's liner off eBay today ($119, including a single temp controller).

 

I hope it fits; otherwise, you may see it for sale on this board shortly. Thanks for all your help.

 

---John.