Driving Lights - Spot or Flood

[Speedmaster]

What do most recommend when adding driving lights, one spot and one flood, or two spots? If you say one of each, which side gets the spot?

 

Thanks for any help.

[RodB]

Where I work, we are adding LED driving lights to some of our vehicles.

There are 4 choices for us: spot, trapezoid, flood and wide flood.

The spot option is basically a parallel beam,throwing light for a great distance.

We use the trapezoid choice, as this beam gives good distance lighting while slightly widening (tapered), giving a good peripheral view of the sides of the road.

While one of each (spot & flood) may give the same effect, I'd rather have both lights the same.

[Paul Mihalka]

Depends completely on your riding plans and riding location. If you are planning to ride long distance on fairly straight low traffic roads, two spots is best. If you plan on twisty roads or more traffic, one spot/one flood may be best. The flood should go on the right to light up the right edge of the road. Note: long distance spots should be wired to go on/off with the high beam. My most frequent night riding is going home from work on small country roads. I picked two not too wide pattern floods that are on all the time. I don't have use for long distance lighting as in the East I'm always behind somebody or somebody is coming my way.

[Paul Szilard - Australia]

Where I work, we are adding LED driving lights to some of our vehicles....

 

Where are you buying these from? Are they expensive?

Thanks.

[RodB]

Where are you buying these from? Are they expensive?

 

The lights we use are these, they are too big to put on a motorcycle, but are perfect for industrial, construction, mining, etc. We pay about $460 a pot.

For recreational, outdoor sport use, these would be more appropriate.

[Peter Parts]

Why add lights? Conspicuity, road illumination near or far, cosmetics?

 

Are you sure you sure they will be helpful for any purpose and/or that the fuss in switching them on and off avoiding blinding oncoming drivers is worth the benefit in illumination? High among the big obnoxious behaviors is blinding lights - and can't add that much conspicuity to what is provided by your existing headlight.

 

Hope that doesn't start a flame post from somebody who says "Improving my conspicuity is important no matter how noxious to others."

 

Headlights have really complexly focused light patterns - unlike some aftermarket add-ons.

 

Ben

[ESokoloff]

 

The lights we use are these, they are too big to put on a motorcycle, but are perfect for industrial, construction, mining, etc. We pay about $460 a pot.

 

WOW, those are impressive!

50watts of LED equals what? 350W incandescent?

[DD 430]

Where are you buying these from? Are they expensive?

 

The lights we use are these, they are too big to put on a motorcycle, but are perfect for industrial, construction, mining, etc. We pay about $460 a pot.

For recreational, outdoor sport use, these would be more appropriate.

 

The second of the 'these' links really look like a nice setup. Mounting, especially, is neat and clean. The price is a choker for we unemployed 'bums' though.

 

The 'free' ($100.00 value)flashlight looks a lot like one of a pair that I picked up at Costco in March for about $30.00. The flashlight has two setting: Bright & Dim. Hmm.. .

 

As to the flood/spot question I simply want to be seen. I'm going to stick with my motorcyclerunninglights 4-LED system for $159.00. My wife didn't shoot me for spending the money on that one. Death would be a sure outcome if I'd of sprung for the other!

[Peter Parts]

snip

 

As to the flood/spot question I simply want to be seen.

 

I'm all for conspicuity, but don't you think your headlight is seen pretty well?

 

Blinding and otherwise harassing oncoming traffic doesn't sound like a beneficial safety move.

 

... and I speak as an elderly driver (incidentally, did my MA thesis in vision). I know when you get to be my age, 70 in a few weeks, you'll agree with me (doncha hate it when people say that).

 

Ben

record setting high temperatures in Toronto today

[DD 430]

".. and I speak as an elderly driver (incidentally, did my MA thesis in vision). I know when you get to be my age, 70 in a few weeks, you'll agree with me (doncha hate it when people say that)."

 

Ben, Happy Birthday! I'll be 60 in a few weeks. Settling into decrepitude but not there yet. (Although, I did get rid of the BSA Goldstar because I could no longer kick it over - drat! But, there is something to be set for 'pushing a button' on the RT!)

[Paul Mihalka]

Com'on fellows, stop bragging about your age, I've got you beat...

Back to lights: I do value conspicuity to a point even so I still ride mostly in black leather. It is possible to have good driving lights that give useful extra lighting on the road but properly adjusted can be on all the time without blinding. On my GS I have a pair big lights that give a yellowish beam, light up the edges of the road but are not blinding. They don't flash lights at me.

 

[tallman]

Why add lights? Conspicuity, road illumination near or far, cosmetics?

 

Are you sure you sure they will be helpful for any purpose and/or that the fuss in switching them on and off avoiding blinding oncoming drivers is worth the benefit in illumination? High among the big obnoxious behaviors is blinding lights - and can't add that much conspicuity to what is provided by your existing headlight.

 

Hope that doesn't start a flame post from somebody who says "Improving my conspicuity is important no matter how noxious to others."

 

Headlights have really complexly focused light patterns - unlike some aftermarket add-ons.

 

Ben

 

Ride rural much?

In the dark?

 

I'm sure they are helpful.

 

Compared to headlight, I've tested my multiple aux lights in the dark on long straight roads and with curves.

One set illuminates farther than the high beam, measured by visual observations of reflective signs and bots dots,

but, they don't bother the oncoming drivers in the way the high beam does.

So, more illumination, and more conspicuity.

My second set are mounted lower.

They provide more conspicuity and don't elicit flash back from oncoming driver in 99% of my encounters.

They provide more side illumination and also more down the road.

 

Bears, panther, fox, coyote, deer, turkey, racoon, opossum, flying squirrel, hawks, buzzards, wild pigs,

alligaotrs, 6 foot plus poisonous snakes, beaver, ferrets, wild dogs, bobcat, horses, cattle, sasquatch, are just some of the roadshow I have to look out for.

A modern high beam does a pretty good job of illuminating the road.

But it almost always gets the flash from oncoming traffic.

There are alternatives that don't annoy others and still add to both conspicuity and illumination.

It certainly isn't a hassle to use an autoswitch to turn on/off aux lights compared to the added benefit they provide.

 

The triangle works.

 

"All three alerting light systems evaluated in the human

perception and recognition tests were found to be more

effective as warning devices than standard headlights

alone. FRA regulations now require use of one of those

systems."

 

link

 

and

"In any case, the results by

Andersson and Nilsson (1981), NHTSA (2000), Bergkvist (2001), and Thompson (2003) seem to

verify that the DRL effect for unprotected road users is substantially greater than for cars. They

report the largest crash reductions for pedestrians and cyclists in urban areas.

The special problems of motorcycles are treated in Section 6.10"

link

 

 

Also some data about high beam (intensity of DRL's masking turn signals)

 

And conspicuity, triangle and documented DRL reduction in motorcycle accidents

"The problem with identification of motorcycles (e.g., distinguishing them from mopeds),

could be solved by giving motorcycles a special DRL configuration (e.g., three lamps mounted in a

triangle) (Fulton et al., 1988; CIE, 1993). More than one lamp would also facilitate estimation of

distance and speed of motorcycles."

 

"Motorcycles should be further enhanced, and their speed and distance should be made easier

to estimate, perhaps by creating a triangular pattern of a DRL lamp and two other lamps of DRL

type and characteristics."

 

 

"Motorcycles should be equipped with two horizontally-separated DRLs, placed under the

existing DRL, to create a triangular DRL system."

 

 

This is an interesting report on DRL's covering everything from your latitude to fuel costs, pollution, environmental impact of DRL's.

Best wishes

 

[EddyQ]

Thanks Tim for a few more articles to add to my library.

 

I feel the best way to keep a car from lefting in front of you is make your bike look like a car. The best way to do that is dual headlights the same width and height as a cars. Well, we cannot do that, but a pair of bright lights mounted under your mirrors are the closest thing. IMHO

It helps in the rear of the bike too.

 

The issue really goes deeper than getting seen. It is that unconcious search for "cars" that a driver really sees. If it isn't a "car" to the unconcious brain, then it must be a street light or some non-issue obstacle. There is at least one article I found that explores this effect. I believe it.

 

I've had a few instances, one with my own buddy in a car, that cut pretty hard in front of me while I was on my bike. The other was a dad driving his kids in a minivan which looked into my eyes and pulled out. They both saw me, but somehow failed to think I was a threat. Some believe they cannot judge your speed. Maybe, but I believe it is that unconcious decision that this is NOT a vehicle.

[RodB]

Bears, panther, fox, coyote, deer, turkey, racoon, opossum, flying squirrel, hawks, buzzards, wild pigs,

alligaotrs, 6 foot plus poisonous snakes, beaver, ferrets, wild dogs, bobcat, horses, cattle, sasquatch, are just some of the roadshow I have to look out for.

 

What color are the sasquatch in headlights?

[tallman]

Same as they are in the dark.

 

[Peter Parts]

Gimme a break...

 

1. The guy who started the thread said he is interested in conspicuity, not seeing the road. Sure, adding lights lights the road. Just questions of how much, how far, braking distance, is much added to stock headlight, etc. or is it just more feel-good light?

 

2. The first article quoted by Tallman relates to locomotives. They tested how far away you could see 'em. Duh.

 

3. The second article related to daytime running lights. No particular evidence about bikes although bikes are mentioned throughout. The only substantive issues is that when every car is using DRLs, bikes are less conspicuous. The piece mentions that there is evidence that drivers are no more able to judge bike oncoming speed with DRLs.

 

I'd like to see see some relevant research evidence. Did some studies of changeable highway signs, bicycle route signage, and bus signs... years ago. Being able to see a locomotive a quarter-mile away is not relevant data since nobody ever said being able to see a bike coming into an intersection was too hard.

 

Ben

[tallman]

Really?

He didn't say anything about "seeing the road", you're putting words in his mouth.

 

Yes it was locomotives and the info is relevant.

It is aabout what people "see".

You're the one that opened the (do you really need 'em/will it do you any good) can of worms.

 

I for one don't agree with your statement.

 

". Being able to see a locomotive a quarter-mile away is not relevant data since nobody ever said being able to see a bike coming into an intersection was too hard."

 

The info I linked was very specific about how bright the lights should be and the effect of glare among other points.

 

Feel free to ride w/out any lights except your stock beams.

Not trying to convert you as it would appear you already have something that works for you.

[Peter Parts]

Pardon my oversight, but I forgot to say how much I appreciate the fact that Tallman introduced some high-class research into this discussion.

 

Reasonable people can differ on interpretation.

 

 

But a more serious error on my part was mistaking RodB for omegaspeed (who started this thread) who said he liked lights for conspicuity. I don't know what omegaspeed thinks.

 

I'd say the jury is out on any benefits to having oncoming left-turning drivers stop in their tracks. But the annoyance of glaring headlights is not in question (even when you try to be conscientious about flicking them off). I don't think it is possible for you young 'uns have much intuition about how us old farts think about glare.

 

Long ago, I had a little Alfa sedan (GTV) with like 8 halogen lights in front. Yes, it illuminated the Ontario bush really well. But there was scarcely a time I could ever use them.

 

Is it feasible to add much effective light to the excellent BMW headlight? Best safety use of spare cash?

 

Ben

[EddyQ]

I'd say the jury is out on any benefits to having oncoming left-turning drivers stop in their tracks. But the annoyance of glaring headlights is not in question (even when you try to be conscientious about flicking them off). I don't think it is possible for you young 'uns have much intuition about how us old farts think about glare.

 

Ben, I agree with your points about being too bright and glare. There does seem to be a flood of folks who add HIDs, DRLs with huge light output without too much thought of other traffic and it isn't right.

 

Is it feasible to add much effective light to the excellent BMW headlight? Best safety use of spare cash?

 

I'm not a fan of my 07' RT BMW headlight. It has a real engineered, complex, focused beam with a bunch of candlepower that nicely points that perfect fan shapped beam on the road (in lab tests). But, in reality the focused beam sucks. It sheds very "spotty" light on the road (especialy when banking a turn), blinds on-coming traffic (especially when accelerating) and bounces around when riding the flat. So, the BMW light has room for improvement. I couldn't fix it so I added a widebeam, low wattage driving light which works well with this headlight for lighting reasons. For conspicuity reasons, I think the DRL are a winner. I don't feel my additional DRL are blinding folks any more than if I did not add the lights.

 

You asked for more reasearch: LINK

Unfortunately, I haven't found one article that shows a STRONG reason for use of DRL on motorcycles.

[Peter Parts]

snip

 

You asked for more reasearch: LINK

Unfortunately, I haven't found one article that shows a STRONG reason for use of DRL on motorcycles.

 

EddyQ, you're right!

 

Now that's pretty well conceived and, I think, well conducted study although the authors seem to be engineer sorts rather than behavior sorts. Looking at "gap acceptance" and real-world left turning ahead of a bike are measures pretty close as you can get to relevant.

 

1. At the track test, they found very small differences between all kinds of light treatments and these differences formed into no ranking that made sense to me. So whatever the order, it might just be random. (They found "statistical significance" only between the big car-gap and the littlest of the other gaps. That's shoddy science to toot differences of that sort.)

 

2. Ditto for the real-world test and since they don't compare the two, I would guess the ranking were all kind of different and hence, doubly no pattern... and no advantage to modulating, driving lights, plain low beams, etc.

 

3. The track data compared subjective ratings of visibility with gap acceptance. No correlation at all.

 

4. Looks like folks give cars more space. That's really important to know but not news to anybody here, eh.

 

Well, maybe the jury is not out. Maybe the jury, for the moment, thinks there are no advantages for bike conspicuity for driving lights.

 

For sure, a daytime running light is essential. But adding trick lights on top of that, seems to have little benefit.

 

Ben

 

 

[tallman]

A 1/3 reduction of risk for injury or death works for me.

 

New Zealand study

 

 

The train study had two components.

1)technology assessment and 2)human perception and recognition.

 

This study led to the requirement for locomotives to display the triangular lighting pattern.

The results about human perception and recognition are what catches my attention.

 

If people think I’m a train, that’s OK.

[Peter Parts]

A 1/3 reduction of risk for injury or death works for me.

 

New Zealand study

 

 

snip

 

Dumbest study ever published.

 

They compared two groups of riders: (1) older, better licensed, more riding experience, had the sense (and were the kind of people) who don't stupidly wear black helmets, drank no alcohol that day, brush their teeth twice a day, etc. etc. and who didn't have an accident that day with (2) folks who did have an accident.

 

Hey, funny thing, the first group use their headlights during the day. Big surprise for me was that the jerks in the accident group weren't more at risk.

 

Moral of the story: use a MATCHED control group not one that is superior in every possible way to the accident-group!

 

Puzzling thing is why any professional journal would publish such garbage.

 

Tallman, I think it is not playing fair to wave your hands in the air and shout "One-third reduction!!!" when the study said nothing about the thread topic of auxiliary driving lights... and proved nothing at all.

 

Ben

[Marty Hill]

Tim, there is a time to let the other guy think he is right!

[boatzo]

Tim, there is a time to let the other guy think he is right!

 

+1, it aint worth the stress!

[Peter Parts]

+1, let the facts speak for themselves.

[EddyQ]

Dumbest study ever published.

 

I'm sure you have read worse. MUCH worse.

 

Moral of the story: use a MATCHED control group not one that is superior in every possible way to the accident-group!

 

Ben, the folks that do these studies don't have a huge pool of money. As I said before, there hasn't been the "ideal" study worthy of STRONG reasons for DRL's. There has been quite a few studies and personal experiences that suggest they are worth having. I don't see any information from you that would rank as even a weak case against DRLs. So, I wish you would tone down your blows to Tallman and others relating this subject.

[Peter Parts]

I haven't made serious criticism of Tallman - I thanked him for introducing research into this discussion and didn't quibble too much about the value of lots of lights in the boonies, as he pointed out.

 

EddyQ had a link to a good study and I said so, but that last study is terrible. Money for research isn't the issue because they could have analyzed the data a bit differently (using a "matched probands" design) and come out with some useful stuff. Moreover, the fact they didn't give the rankings of light schemes in their second sub-study or provide an standard deviations on any of their distance measures makes me doubt their competence.

 

Gotta say it one more time: abundant evidence that daytime running lights are valuable. You can't turn off the lights on an Oilhead in many countries and BMW went to the fuss of adding the Load Shedding Relay for starting. No debate about that for the last 20 years or so. DRLs are a very good idea and in a place where most cars use DRLs, it is suicidal for a biker not to use them.

 

The question is whether adding more lights helps cut your risk much through conspicuity and compared to what costs.

 

Ben

 

 

 

 

[RodB]

"The question" is whether adding more lights helps cut your risk much through conspicuity and compared to what costs.

 

I'll see if that car that I'm meeting and waiting to turn left, will let me go by and I'll ask "questions" later....

[Paul Mihalka]

Just a one person non-scientific observation. On my R1100RT and my R1150R I had a pair of Motolights. They don't give too much road lighting but should be good conspicuity lights. Then to my current R1200GS I added the two large YELLOW driving lights. I DEFINITELY notice drivers not pulling out of a driveway or turning left in front of me even if they still could. I guess it is just something they are not accostumed to see. Probably if every one had two big yellow lights, they would be less effective. Besides they much improve lighting up the road, without blinding. I have the right one aimed off-center to the right. When on backroads I get a bit blinded by oncoming traffic, lighting up the edge is a big help.

[tallman]

My response was to your staement about wanting to see a study that met certain criteria, not one about driving lights.

Seems your more interested in forgetting what you asked for, or throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

If that isn't how you meant your series of recent posts, and some earlier ones, I'll try reading more carefully.

 

Perhaps you would be so kind as to loink some of the previous

studies that you did so we can see what a real study should look like.

 

You say no studies, I say they're out there.

I say the NZ one definitely is applicable to questions about conspicuity.

You say, no.

 

Doesn't matter to me, I'm intersted in learning..

Like the study you applauded above, the one based on left turns and spacoing.

In that study it appears to indicate that a headlight modulator is the worst thing (of athe variables in that study ) you can do when it comes to left turn spacing.

I knew there was a reson I didn't like them.

Best wishes.

[Indy Dave]

David Hough, in "Proficient Motorcycling", notes on pages 40-43 general findings about being seen and offers recommendations accordingly; including additional lighting and/or amber lights, along with several other suggestions. Several factors relate to the addition of additional lights, including how the brain perceives oncoming objects and their speed.

[Peter Parts]

snip

Perhaps you would be so kind as to loink some of the previous

studies that you did so we can see what a real study should look like.

snip

 

HERE you'll find a paper about highway signs for bikeways - look for report 4.3.

 

Maybe it was a really lousy year for research papers, but this one was awarded the Outstanding Paper of the year prize by the international Inst. of Trans. Eng. Came with a nice bronze plaque for my wall.

 

The sign testing (my role) was far from perfect research, but did a lot to influence regulations.

 

Ben

[wuli959]

Just a one person non-scientific observation. On my R1100RT and my R1150R I had a pair of Motolights. They don't give too much road lighting but should be good conspicuity lights. Then to my current R1200GS I added the two large YELLOW driving lights. I DEFINITELY notice drivers not pulling out of a driveway or turning left in front of me even if they still could. I guess it is just something they are not accostumed to see. Probably if every one had two big yellow lights, they would be less effective. Besides they much improve lighting up the road, without blinding. I have the right one aimed off-center to the right. When on backroads I get a bit blinded by oncoming traffic, lighting up the edge is a big help.

 

I have the same experiance on my 1150GS. Have two "yellow" tinged foglights mounted below the headlight assembly that I turn on and off with an "autoswitch" built into the turnsignal cancel button. If within the first couple of miles of riding, a vehicle does something "dumb" in front of me, I know that I forgot to turn them on. On or off, the change in behavior due to others being able to see me is demonstrable.