US church - Quran burning

[Matts_12GS]

no more calls, we have a winner!

[Ken H.]

I often wonder why most people feel need to gather in a building to celebrate their God with others.

Yes and I would put that clearly under the category of a ritual. I’d probably go even a step further and say the ridged adherence to a ritual such as gathering on a schedule (e.g. every Sunday) is evidenced of a shallowness of the understanding, commitment to the core tenants of the religion. (And don’t even get me started on the whole need to dress your best or a certain way there subject.)

 

Formalized ‘prayer’ is the same thing IMHO. I can recite/parrot, “Our Father who are in heaven...” all day long and never have said a darn thing to God. OTOH, “Hey God, how’s your day been? Mine’s been kind of sucky because...” can be one heck of a powerful prayer.

 

 

[Ken H.]

I still think it's just a frickin' book, and anyone who attaches that much value to a man-made object composed largely of tree detritus that came off a mass-production printer is totally insane.

 

You can buy a Koran published by Penguin Classics for $8 bucks new.... or one from Mass Market Paperback for $9.95. Did Allah, or perhaps his "do not caricature under penalty of death" messenger Mohammed, grant a license to these printers? Or provide some special dispensation allowing their printing machines to magically churn out sacred books? It's not like Pastor Pinhead is burning the only copy of the Koran or some one-of-a-kind orginal text from the library of Al Whozafat!

 

So why do we fear this sort of inane bullshit, or go out of our way to be sensitive to people who come up with these nutty ideas? I mean, if I decided to burn a copy of the Principia Mathematica, and English atheists and followers of Bertrand Russell declared that Americans will be killed around the world as a result of my action, wouldn't you think they were nuckin' futz? And if our President and top generals issued public appeals to urge me to change my mind, wouldn't you be sort of embarrassed by that?

 

And what about the Sunnis who bomb Shia mosques (or vice versa)? Presumably there are Korans in those mosques, right? Or maybe it's okay to destroy the Koran provided Muslim men, women and children are holding onto a copy?

 

Eff that. I'm tired of caring what these people think, worrying about what might offend them, etc.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, in a nutshell is why they will continue to attack us in perpetuity.

[Ken H.]

no more calls, we have a winner!

Buzzzz... Wrong answer!

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

And that, ladies and gentlemen, in a nutshell is why they will continue to attack us in perpetuity.

 

You say that like it's a reasonable response to the burning of a book.

 

If a person hates the color blue, and I insisted on wearing blue and attract threats and assaults from them because of it, would you defend their perspective, or would you maybe start to think that their perspective was a bit whacked?

[Ken H.]

Sean, Matt, it’s not about whether you agree with their beliefs or not, whether or not we think their ideas are nutty and they think they are sacred. Many parts of the world think exactly the same thing about what some of the United States (and Canada too) believes in. Heck I might even (not saying that I do, only that I might) agree with you that some of their ideas are ‘nutty’ from where we sit.

 

It’s about respecting their right to believe in what they believe in. Quite literally extending the same rights and respect of freedom of religion we expound to support in our countries to beyond our boarders. Do we have the gall on the stage of the world to say freedom and respect of religion stops at the North American boarder?

 

[Knifemaker]

 

Buzzzz... Wrong answer!

 

 

 

 

The nature of the human being is to 'Win" no matter if the question is political,social,religious,or any other type of cause...we want to win...

[Ken H.]

And that, ladies and gentlemen, in a nutshell is why they will continue to attack us in perpetuity.

You say that like it's a reasonable response to the burning of a book.

Whether I think it is a reasonable response or not (or do or don't think they are a little bit "whacked") is totally irrelevant. The fact that they think it is a reasonable response is what’s relevant to the, should we or should we not burn their book discussion. If for no other reason than the fact that we will pay the consequences. Both in immediate consequences and long term escalation of the ‘war’ between Christian extremist and Muslim extremist. The collateral damage of this little stunt will be long, far, deep and wide.

 

This is in every way throwing gas on the metaphorical fire. If a person throws gas on a literal leaf fire and it flares up and he gets burnt, whose the stupid one? The person or the leafs?

[Ken H.]

The problem with the enlightened countries like the U.S. is that because majority rules has been replaced by being P.C. We have lost focus on winning so we can be P.C.

Have you ever considered that being P.C. is winning? That the very definition of the principles the USA was founded on require us to be P.C. If we are to remain true to them that is.

 

I think the rights that we enjoy are very much rooted in being P.C.

 

[SeanC]

It’s about respecting their right to believe in what they believe in.

They believe adultery is not only a sin but a capital offense, and under islamic law are now (as we speak) preparing to stone a woman to death for committing it. Do you respect that belief? The woman in question also dared to let a photographer take a picture of her with her face uncovered -- not her breasts, legs, etc., but her face -- and for that, under islamic law, she received 90 lashes in prison while she awaits her execution. Do you respect that belief? An Afghan cleric -- not a terrorist or taliban soldier, but a muslim cleric -- not only warned that Americans will be killed for the burning of a koran, but urged his followers to engage in the killing should the opportunity to do so arise. Do you respect that belief?

 

Quite literally extending the same rights and respect of freedom of religion we expound to support in our countries to beyond our boarders. Do we have the gall on the stage of the world to say freedom and respect of religion stops at the North American boarder?

So you're suggesting we "extend the right" to Muslims to kill Americans -- outside our borders, of course -- because an American exercised his right to freedom of speech, committing an act considered blasphemous to Islam, punishable by death under Islamic law? Are you seriously saying that? Think about that for a moment, Ken....

 

You wax philosophic on the virtues of relativism, but conveniently ignore any ideal of reciprocity.

[Knifemaker]

Even though it is, as Capt. Hook would say "Poor Form"

 

Until this country by majority vote says that "It is illegal" in any way shape or form to distroy this book...there is nothing that can be done about it. If the extreamists feel that this excuse is an open invitation to attack the U.S. and they can not afford this country, the same understanding of our beliefs that we try to afford them....so be it..

[Matts_12GS]

Ken,

 

I can believe their beliefs are goofy, I can say those thoughts and practitioners of those thoughts are goofy. I can openly mock them if I choose as long as I do not interfere with the legal practice of those "goofy" beliefs.

 

However, I will do all that I am able to stop that free exercise of their beliefs when said practice impacts others who choose not to follow.

 

That is part of the social contract of America, respect for the rights and liberty of individuals, not groups.

[bakerzdosen]

I'd hate to think that this whole discussion was for naught, but...

 

Florida Minister Cancels Burning of Korans on 9/11

[Paul Mihalka]

I guess the pastor reached his goal. 15 minutes of fame.

[Selden]

I was kind of expecting Terry Jones to have a revelation before lighting the match -- it's pretty much standard practice for one of these situations, whether Islamic, Christian, or Mormon.

 

We have possibly the best outcome that could have been hoped for from this mess: Donald Trump buys the property in NYC for 125% of last sale value; Islamic center is built on another location; "Reverend" Jones doesn't burn any Qur'ans. However, after all the coverage he has received in the past week, Mr. Jones still says "Iman" instead of "Imam" which suggests that he is as ignorant as ever.

 

IF what the media report is what is actually happening -- there still seems to be quite a bit of uncertainty.

 

One of the curses of being retired is that I have more opportunity to watch daytime TV. As I was dozing off last night, I thought, "What if none of the media sent a single reporter to Gainesville?" With luck, 24-hour news coverage will revert to more important stuff by next week, such as Lindsay Lohan or Paris Hilton.

[Matts_12GS]

However, after all the coverage he has received in the past week, Mr. Jones still says "Iman" instead of "Imam" which suggests that he is as ignorant as ever.

 

There's that famous tolerance again eh?

 

It may just be how the man speaks... Good grief.

[notacop]

The bozo with mutton chops is vacillating. Praise be to Gawd!

I'se seen the light!

I wish he had and been prosecuted for fomenting hate crimes and civil unrest. Oh, well.

[Mike]

I guess the pastor reached his goal. 15 minutes of fame.

 

Yes, that's what it was all about.

 

However, there will certainly be others who will be willing to carry the torch (literally and figuratively). We all know that it's just a matter of time.

[Selden]

There's that famous tolerance again eh?

I have very little tolerance for ignorance.

[Fubar]

I am glad i live in a society that actually allows other religious books to be viewed, sold etc , try taking a bible or any Christian artifact into Saudi Arabia and see how tolerant they are.

Why do you think I live here and not there? Well, that and beer.

[Matts_12GS]

There's that famous tolerance again eh?

I have very little tolerance for ignorance.

 

It doesn't make your judgment of the man any more valid...

 

That's all I'm saying.

[David]

There's that famous tolerance again eh?

I have very little tolerance for ignorance.

 

Just to bring a little balance to this, it's the height of ignorance (and hate) to treat women like women are treated in strict Islamic cultures.

 

I'd hope that we would be equal-opportunity ignorance haters.

[Fubar]

Until this country by majority vote says that "It is illegal" in any way shape or form to destroy this book...there is nothing that can be done about it.

Except that majority vote does not make law. Ask California concerning gay marriage (latest example). The legislative branch writes the bill, executive branch signs it into law, judicial branch sees if it passes Constitutional muster.

In this particular case, it is not illegal to burn a book, sacred or not. It is an expression of Constitutionally guaranteed rights, however heinous that expression might be percieved.

 

The Constitution does not protect the many from the few, it protects the one from the many.

 

[Fubar]

I have very little tolerance for ignorance.

My problem is with stupidity, not ignorance.

Ignorance is simply a lack of knowledge, information, or education. Stupidity is knowing better and still doing the wrong thing.

All are ignorant. Not all are stupid.

 

Just saw footage of this story (the lead on BBC). This goober uses a handgun as a paperweight!

And he's going for 20 minutes of fame by trying to leverage the Quran burning to a relocation of the "ground zero" mosque. He'll be in NY to meet the imam on Saturday, the 11th. Hope he leaves his matches in FL.

[Lets_Play_Two]

Sean, Matt, it’s not about whether you agree with their beliefs or not, whether or not we think their ideas are nutty and they think they are sacred. Many parts of the world think exactly the same thing about what some of the United States (and Canada too) believes in. Heck I might even (not saying that I do, only that I might) agree with you that some of their ideas are ‘nutty’ from where we sit.

 

It’s about respecting their right to believe in what they believe in. Quite literally extending the same rights and respect of freedom of religion we expound to support in our countries to beyond our boarders. Do we have the gall on the stage of the world to say freedom and respect of religion stops at the North American boarder?

 

And how does this comment fit into your tolerance and respect principle?

 

"Yes and I would put that clearly under the category of a ritual. I’d probably go even a step further and say the ridged adherence to a ritual such as gathering on a schedule (e.g. every Sunday) is evidenced of a shallowness of the understanding, commitment to the core tenants of the religion. (And don’t even get me started on the whole need to dress your best or a certain way there subject.) "

[beemerman2k]

Great great thread. This one has turned out to be among my all time favorite discussions.

 

Although I consider myself to be a religious man (though certainly not formally, I cannot remember the last time I went to church to worship), I really appreciate SeanC's perspective here. At the end of the day, here's how I view the role of faith in my life:

 

The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath

 

Similarly, Dr. King said

 

The government was made for man, not man for the government

 

I take that very principle and extend it to all of religion -- it does not exist for me to serve, it exists to serve me! It is simply a tool being used by God to help me to mature into "the world's most interesting man". OK, maybe not that, but into a mature man whose values are to serve others and to make the world a place where "God's will is done on earth as it is in heaven". To the extent that a holy book, a church, or other religious tools help me to get there, great! Otherwise, I need to gravitate toward those tools that will. That can be anything from my friends to eastern thought and the martial arts, to motorcycling, to whatever. My God is not about rules and laws and sins, but instead She's about iron clad values, principles, and maturity. My fellow human being ranks first on that list of God's values and principles. The only thing that is "sacred" in my world is the act of serving others. Period. No object, no book, no doctrine, no building is "sacred" to me. Only serving others and especially my family.

 

By this definition, there are countless people who neither know of nor care about my religion who live lives and have priorities that are very much in agreement with it. To me, it's all about values and priorities, not commands.

 

My God does not need to be defended or protected. He doesn't need anyone to follow him or to worship him. If you'd like to adopt his/her values, great. If not, that's great, too. You are free to live your life as you choose.

 

So just as I would tell my own religion to take a hike if I felt it was trying to harness my soul, so I would tell someone else's, too. That's what I appreciate about SeanC's perspective

[1springer]

"The Constitution does not protect the many from the few, it protects the one from the many."

 

Nicely said!

 

 

[DavidEBSmith]

Based on this photo of Rev. Jones, we can now feel free to arbitrarily criticize him.

 

[Mike]

Eebie, we're fine with criticizing another about his religion or ethnicity, but it seems kind of a low blow to attack another's choice of motorcycle.

[Rocer]

...and just think about the kettle of fish we'd be in if he were wearing a BMW shirt!

[Matts_12GS]

Interesting points James.

 

I try although don't often make it to a congregational service on Sundays, but a bit of a parable from a sermon reminds me of why it is important to attend.

 

The gist of the parable is that a man who'd been a church member decided he could better worship on his own. The pastor came to visit and ask why he'd not been around like he used to be and so, the man explained why he thought that he could worship as well alone as in the body of the congregation.

 

As he explained this, the pastor moved to the fireplace took a coal out and set it on the hearth away from the fire. The man explained, the pastor listened and the coal cooled.

 

As the man finished his explanation, the pastor stood up, shook his hand and said he wished a different fate for the man's faith than that of the coal. And thus, the man was back in church the next week.

 

I think as we are social beasts and enjoy the company of like minded others it would make sense that "corporate" worship like that in a church would make sense as an affirmation of our choice in faith as well as a bulwark against the trials and tribulations of the world that seek to interfere with our walk in faith.

 

Food for thought.

[Selden]

By this definition, there are countless people who neither know of nor care about my religion who live lives and have priorities that are very much in agreement with it. To me, it's all about values and priorities, not commands.

 

My God does not need to be defended or protected. He doesn't need anyone to follow him or to worship him. If you'd like to adopt his/her values, great. If not, that's great, too. You are free to live your life as you choose.

 

So just as I would tell my own religion to take a hike if I felt it was trying to harness my soul, so I would tell someone else's, too. That's what I appreciate about SeanC's perspective

Well stated, as always with your posts. From my perspective, the existence of a god or gods has nothing to do with living a life with decent values and priorities. Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes' observation, "The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins," applies equally well to religion.

 

Having lived in Saudi Arabia for 5 years, I have a great deal of direct experience with intolerance, which is one (among many) reasons that I left, and is why intolerance from any quarter bothers me so much -- especially when it's based on ignorance, which generally seems to be the case with religious zealots of any persuasion.

[philbytx]

Selden,

 

In your experience in Saudi, did you not feel that the Saudi government (The "Royal Family") public face was a lot different from their private??

 

By that, I mean their desire to keep their position(s) and the peace (and their lives!), required them supporting the religous radical element.

 

I ask this because I did business with various Saudi entities and that was my impression!

 

 

[beemerman2k]

Matt, this is the problem as best I can define it: I insist upon being honest with myself when it comes to my faith. That honesty is often counter to what a church and it's people are willing to entertain. Therefore, I eventually feel pressure to either "just shut up and fall in line", or "consider yourself a heretic" -- pick one.

 

Is there a God? If there is, am I confident anyone knows or understands this Deity? Do I accept many of the assumptions of the Christian faith such as "the Bible is the infallable Word of God"? Do I hold Christian doctrine as more important than Christian values? I will always be open to pondering, considering, entertaining, and discussing all of these matters, and many more besides. I feel no compulsion to "win over the minds of unbelievers" because truth be told, I find there is plenty of reason for disbelief! I like to pick on Killer, but in reality I have no problem with, nor do I find his perspective the slightest bit foreign or uncomfortable. In fact, I love his brazen and strong atheistic stand -- talk about a refusal to "fall in line" with mainstream thinking! Can you imagine what it would take to change his mind?

 

What I often find equally disheartening is that oftentimes when Christians try to encourage me to "get back in line with the mainstream thinking of the faith and cease my useless intellectual wanderings" (that's the gist of the sermon being preached to me), I find that I am far more knowledgable of what the Bible actually says than they are! I have studied the book from cover to cover on several occasions. I am well aware of what it has to say from Genesis to Revelation. Do I understand it all? Not even close! But I hold my own convictions with respect to my life and God's message to me as being more important than that of others with respect to my life and God's calling to me. Strange, but true. And oftentimes, considered heretical.

 

I feel strongly about this position, and I feel there is HUGE Biblical precident for it. HUGE! I love it when Abraham pleads with God on behalf of Sodom and Gommorah. In essence, Abraham says, "go ahead and destroy those cities if you must, but I am not signing off on it". Abraham clearly differed with God with respect to the fate of those cities. Abraham had the guts to be honest with himself and with God as to how he really felt.

 

Job would never have received the answers to his eterally critical complaints to God had he not openly and brazenly vocalized them and challenged God to make sense to him. His "church friends" tried to explain it all to him, but their words fell far short of calming Job's heart. Job dared to be honest, and therefore he won a conversation with God. Job got the answers he sought.

 

The prophet Habbakkuk: read his 3 chapter book. You'll see 2 chapters of open complaint to God concerning the moral decay of Israel and God's plan to take them into exile under the Babylonians. While Habbakkuk has a difficult time accepting this reality, he comes to terms with it and writes one of the most beautiful chapters in the Bible: Habbakuk 3. And in fact, that book serves as the theological jump off point for the Apostle Paul's New Testament letter to the Romans.

 

These great men were bold enough to STAND UP to how they felt concerning God's actions with respect to world events. "Just shut up and fall in line" was not an ethic they were at all intrested in entertaining, and too often this is exactly what the modern church encourages its members to do. Where we get this fear to openly question God I do not know, but I don't like it nor do I find it to be at all Biblical. Judaism does not share this attitude; Jews will openly vocalize their complaints (maybe because of the very examples I cite in Abraham, Job, and Habbakkuk, and others besides). They don't do, "God says it, I believe it, and that settles it". They say, "God says it, I don't buy it, so it's time to wrestle with the Angel", a reference to Jacob, Abraham's grandson, wrestling with the angel in Genesis 31.

 

I also see guys like our own David Baker; a man who has pretty much renounced the Christian faith. And yet he loads up his pickup truck and a trailor with all manner of goods so he can drive to Louisiana, on his own dime and his own time, to serve those who were devastated by Hurricane Katrina. Strange, he renounces the Christian faith, and then goes and personifies the very essense and the very core values of that faith! Which do I think God cares about more, David's verbal allegiances or what his heart dictates for him to do? By my standards, he is the High Priest of Christianity in as much as any earthly human can be, his actions speak volumes about what's in his heart (don't tell him I said this ) Let's ask those families who were served by David what form God's great deliverance came in? "God came in the form of a man with a pickup truck and a trailor. That was the devine deliverance that we were praying for".

 

Yes, like that coal my passion for God's plan for my life can cool, but oftentimes, my being at church cools my passions just as quickly Nonetheless, I see God pretty much everywhere I look, and in everyone I see

 

Oh, one last thing: I am not trying to imply that those in Church by definition do not have the guts to be honest with themselves and with their God concerning their faith. For most, I believe, they are being very honest and that's why they are so happy and fulfilled -- the coals of their hearts burn with passion! But they need to understand that not all of us are where they are -- I guess that's my point right there. Some of us need the elbow room to grow, to wrestle, to weigh, to entertain. Yes, I am a man of very small faith, therefore the evidences had better be overwhelming and unambiguous!

[Matts_12GS]

faith like a mustard seed is all it takes...

 

When you make multiple studies, do you use the same translation? I have found a significant difference in my interpretation of the word when read from a KJV or a NIV or even a modern language translation.

 

Good stuff nonetheless

[AZKomet]

Based on this photo of Rev. Jones, we can now feel free to arbitrarily criticize him.

 

 

I actually think this is my uncle Mickey in Buffalo NY. He would definitely light the thing on fire.........I'm surprised that he hasn't fled to the middle east to look for Osama!!!!!

[tallman]

And, as I understand it, the same is true of the translations of the Koran.

[AZKomet]

Do you know how many killers/psycho criminals I have interviewed that said "God" told them to do it??????

 

And has there ever been an "unholy cause" in people's quests to include the Crusades?

[Matts_12GS]

Do you know how many killers/psycho criminals I have interviewed that said "God" told them to do it??????

 

Nope...

 

and I'm not sure why that matters here

[Ken H.]

Sean, Matt, it’s not about whether you agree with their beliefs or not, whether or not we think their ideas are nutty and they think they are sacred. Many parts of the world think exactly the same thing about what some of the United States (and Canada too) believes in. Heck I might even (not saying that I do, only that I might) agree with you that some of their ideas are ‘nutty’ from where we sit.

 

It’s about respecting their right to believe in what they believe in. Quite literally extending the same rights and respect of freedom of religion we expound to support in our countries to beyond our boarders. Do we have the gall on the stage of the world to say freedom and respect of religion stops at the North American boarder?

And how does this comment fit into your tolerance and respect principle?

 

"Yes and I would put that clearly under the category of a ritual. I’d probably go even a step further and say the ridged adherence to a ritual such as gathering on a schedule (e.g. every Sunday) is evidenced of a shallowness of the understanding, commitment to the core tenants of the religion. (And don’t even get me started on the whole need to dress your best or a certain way there subject.) "

Well first off, in neither post where I mentioned them, I wasn’t condemning religious rituals (e.g. certain body motions, gathering together on a schedule, etc.), although I was criticizing them a bit admittedly. Mostly I just don’t understand the importance attached to them relative to having a personal relationship with a god. More I was just mulling over why do they seem to be so much the part of the fabric of most, if not all religions?

 

If going to church, mosque, synagogue is your thing, have at it. The tolerance and respect I’m talking about being needed is just that – “have at it.” Not burning your/their books (of beliefs), protesting choice of location, rioting against where, when and why you/they practice your religion, etc.

 

Now, I blew almost the whole day on this thread yesterday, and as a result was up until about 1 AM trying to finish a damn data submission specification, and I can’t afford to do the same thing today, so I’m bowing out. Cheers!

 

 

[AZKomet]

Hmmmmmmmm......I think you are missing the point.... I won't try to explain it in detail. Not rocket science. People are skewed in all forms of life in their beliefs in an array of things from crime to religion. Like I said has there ever been an unholy cause?????????? In a perfect world we woudn't even be talking about his right? I mean you don't even think I should have made my statement?

 

So we agree to disagree I suppose....wars have been started by similar disagreements. I mean jews were killed in the millions correct? All b/c someone decided that their beliefs and religion was not in line with their thought processes.

 

I don't agree with what you or everyone else says on these forums Matt, but I do not make inflammatory comments to piss them off if I don't like what they have to say...........

[beemerman2k]

Hmmmmmmmm......Like I said has there ever been an unholy cause??????????

 

In the eyes of religion or in Christianity in particular? Absolutely. There are countless "unholy causes" at work in the world today, even within the realms of all faiths. Christianity would not hesitate to acknowledge this reality.

 

I don't agree with what you or everyone else says on these forums Matt, but I do not make inflammatory comments to piss them off if I don't like what they have to say...........

 

Again, this is where I think SeanC has it on straight. I cannot imagine a power or a pursuasion that would motivate me to respond in an inflammatory manner because of my religion. In fact, from my own understanding of my faith, such a response from me suggests I don't understand that which I profess to believe in! If Muslims, or anyone for that matter, are secure and mature in their understanding of their faith -- and many of them are I might add; I have met more than a few over the years -- then you cannot inflame them with your words or your perspectives or your beliefs. And that's SeanC's point: grow up! If you allow yourself to behave like kindling, then someone is eventually going to light a match under your butts just so they can watch you burn! That's the way of the world and nothing will ever change that reality. So grow up!

[azkaisr]

Quoting the Buddha:

 

"Our theories of the eternal are as valuable as those which a chick that has not yet broken its way from its shell might form of the outside world"

 

One can have faith in the teachings of any book or sect. Until we attain eternal salvation by whatever means, we will not know. I have nothing against those who have strong internal faith. But to try and force this belief upon others too often leads to straying from the initial path. Even if done peacefully, it tends to lead to bad things. Worse are those who purposely bastardize theology for power. Therefore, while I have no reasonable way to ban organized religion, I despise it utterly because it used to control those for worldly reasons in the majority of cases. Someday I hope we evolve enough to see that the relationship between us and the divine is a personal matter. In my opinion lumping all those burning coals together only makes the individual coal burn up faster.

 

 

 

 

[philbytx]

[Bob Palin]

no more calls, we have a winner!

So you and Sean are just fine with burning the flag - it's just a man-made object made from plant detritus after all.

[philbytx]

Ah! The symbolism of it all...................but who's symbol ?

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

So you and Sean are just fine with burning the flag - it's just a man-made object made from plant detritus after all.

 

I'd object to it, and I might even voice to my objection, but I'm not going to assault or kill anyone over it.

[Bob Palin]

Ah! The symbolism of it all...................but who's symbol ?

Exactly, I've never understood all this fuss over flag burning (anybody's flag), if the principal can be damaged by the destruction of a symbol the principal probably isn't worth that much to start with.

[Dave McReynolds]

Therefore, while I have no reasonable way to ban organized religion, I despise it utterly because it used to control those for worldly reasons in the majority of cases.

 

Do you also despise government, since it is used for exactly the same purpose? If you look for the most egregious examples of the inhumanity of man to man, it seems to have been perpetuated by governments, such as Nazi Germany, Stalin's Russia, Mao's China, Pol Pot's Cambodia, Idi Amin's Uganda and so on. Of course, there have been many more examples of governments that haven't perpetuated slaughters of its citizens than those that have, just as there are many more examples throughout history of religions that haven't abused their position of trust than those that have.

 

I think the lesson to be learned from this is that no human being or collective of human beings can be trusted in a position of absolute power without the necessary checks and balances to prevent them from occasionally running amuck.

[Matts_12GS]

Wow Dave, that was, uh... something.

Perhaps we missed each other's points here, no reason to go off on a rant... Maybe decaf with that next doughnut will help.