Batteries...

[Huzband]

So after four years & three months, my original battery in my 0812RT gave it up. I went to my local dealer(not BMW) & bought one of them new fangled Lithium Ion batteries. Spendy? YES! But with a three year warranty, hard to beat.

 

And then there's this. It's way smaller, & a full five pounds lighter that the OEM batt. And it spins the starter faster, so the motor lights quicker.

 

I'll be keeping the receipt in a safe just in case. But I expect this batt to last longer than the RT.

 

If it gives up, I'll post here.

[Bernie]

Good info Danny, what brand?

[moshe_levy]

Danny-

 

If this is Shorai, expect a good lifecycle from it. What we have found in our use of LiFePO4 cells in the UPSs we sell to the military is performance equal to or surpassing the very best VRLA cells (which in the case of powersports is Odyssey). Some advantages:

 

1) ~4x higher energy density vs. VRLA

2) Much smaller and much lighter

3) 5000 cycle potential life (equal to ~8-10 year life VRLAs)

4) Better voltage regulation vs. VRLA

5) Wide Temp Range storage and operation (surpasses Odyssey without metal jacket)

6) Eco-friendlier (more parts are recylable and less toxic than VRLA)

 

Overall, a great leap forward. Keep us posted, but I expect to hear good things. Although new to powersports, LiFePO4 cells have been in use for some time now in other industries like ours, and we are thrilled with them.

 

-MKL

 

 

[eddd]

I hope it works out for you Danny.

 

I think that is the same type of battery Chris Blaschke had in his GS at Spring Torrey. Chris is from Texas and hadn't had an issue until he got into the colder weather. I had to give him a jump when they were leaving on a cool morning.

 

I sent him a message to find out specifically what battery he had and will post when more information is available.

[moshe_levy]

Shouldn't be any issue in the cold ***if charged properly.*** Typically they charge down to -10C and can be stored safely to -40C. Both of these figures are better than any standard VRLA, Odyssey excepted.

 

-MKL

[Guest Kakugo]

The only thing keeping me off these LiFePO4 batteries is the need for a dedicated battery charger.

I have two Accumate battery chargers that work like the proverbial treat and would hate to do away with them. They have served long and honorably and see no need for an extra expense.

[** Chris **]

The battery I had was a Shorai. I have no doubt the battery was fully charged as my charging system is operating correctly.

After riding to Santa Fe from Austin, Texas, the battery didn't want to turn the motor over the next morning when the temperatures were in the low 40's.

Then we rode to Torrey, spent the next day riding up to Escalante and on the morning we left, all I got was clicks when trying to start the battery.

 

After arriving home, I e-mailed Shorai and explained my experience to them. They promptly sent me a larger battery to replace the battery I had and a shipping label to return the smaller battery.

 

When I bought the original one, it was their largest and I purchased the battery recommended for the GS.

 

The new one spins the motor much quicker. While traveling to Colorado for the recent Unrally, I had no problem with the bike starting on mornings when the temperatures were in the 40's.

 

[moshe_levy]

Chris-

 

Yes, this makes sense. Perhaps you had one of the earlier models, but the newer ones have more than enough capacity to spin a motor, even at low temps.

 

-MKL

[** Chris **]

It is my understanding that the Shorai battery needs a special charger with a circuit that balances all the cells.

There is another brand called earthX that supposedly has the circuit built in so you can use any charger with it.

I bought one of them for my KTM 690 but I have not installed it yet.

[racer7]

High quality commercial or military parts are one thing and consumer grade stuff is another. Have bought many millions of electronics based items equipping labs and learned to stay away from folks who build commercial gear out of consumer parts- and there are many such makers.

When oems find these new batteries a mature enough technology re quality and cost to be worth installing, I'll get a lot more interested. In my time building custom flashlights for fun I've run into a whole lot of poor quality batteries of all the lithium technologies and don't even want to think about one in my bike that is often in places where just buying a replacement isn't simple. Cell balance problems are also more of an issue in consumer grade lithium types based on my experiences.

Folks who want to be early adopters help the development process for technologies so good on them but I'll stick with the Odysseys for at least a few more years. Saving a few lbs in battery weight is no big deal. Maybe if my bikes still had magneto and kick starter I'd take the chance on the new stuff. Can't see any obvious reason to want to "improve" on what has no practical issues now....

[tallman]

So I guess we'll see a Prius parked there soon, right?

[lkchris]

From the Summer 2012 issue of BMW Motorcycle Magazine:

 

(interview with Karl-Heinz Guabatz, head of Electricals/Electronics at BMW Motorrad)

 

... are Lithium-ion batteries a possibility for BMW motorcycles?

Gaubatz: They are a very good alternative to AGM batteries when the focus is on low weight and small volume. The starting current draw of up to 300 amps required for a boxer engine cannot yet be achieved by any Lithium-ion battery tested. A further disadvantage lies in the limited temperature range. In order to ensure a long life, the temperature should remain between 68 and 140 degrees F and, naturally, that doesn't happen. Above all, the cold-start capacity in freezing temperatures can't be reached for all motorcycle types.

 

The Lithium-ion battery should have the same capacity as the batteries approved by the manufacturer, otherwise the guaranteed service life of the motorcycle is not reached. For example: With a fully charged 19 amp-hour gel battery, a BMW R1200RT should be able to be started after 200 days of inactivity. A Lithium-ion Battery with 3.8 amp-hours can, in this case, self-discharge after only 40 days, with not enough left to start the engine.

 

The nominal voltage of a Lithium-ion cell is 3.7 volts. The lowest voltage should not fall below 2.8 volts, and the maximum cell voltage should not exceed 4.2 volts. In order to prevent that, it's necessary to build cell balancing and monitoring electronics into each battery.

 

The charging voltage for a motorcycle is designed for an AGM or gel battery. A Lithium-ion battery with four individual cells needs 16.6 volts to be fully charged. This higher voltage cannot be provided in the motorcycle due to various technical reasons. A Lithium-ion battery with only three cells requires 12.6 volts to be fully charged. Therefore, the typical voltage regulator in a motorcycle with values ranging between 14.2 and 14.6 volts is too high. Without matching the output voltage of the regulator, a Lithium-ion battery never gets a full charge, which can ruin the battery. Short circuits due to mechanical damage can lead to thermal "runaway" and cause it to explode.

 

What exactly must be done to be able to apply Lithium-ion technology to motorcycle applications?

Gaubatz: There are Lithium-ion cells with other materials, for example Lithium-iron-phosphate, which have lower cell voltage of 3.2 volts. With regard to the maximum charging voltage of 14.6 volts, they would be more suitable. Another possible measure would be to adjust the voltage regulator.

 

We at BMW Motorrad are using our findings from the E-Scooter project to develop a Lithium-ion starter battery with low temperature starting capacity and durability to meet our customers' needs. Lithium-ion batteries, in their current state, are best used for racing and very weight-sensitive vehicles like the BMW S1000RR.

 

 

[racer7]

When you're toting a battery making up a large per cent of the vehicle weight and size ought to be able to fire that dinky motor any time with no issues...

 

Hybrids aren't the same as depending on a marginal size cell to fire the bike. The 1200 motor isn't the worlds fastest spinner while cranking with the oem battery in cold weather which is a reason to stay well away from stuff with reported issues in cold weather. N/A if you never ride in the cold.

 

 

 

[moshe_levy]

From the Summer 2012 issue of BMW Motorcycle Magazine:

 

(interview with Karl-Heinz Guabatz, head of Electricals/Electronics at BMW Motorrad)

 

... are Lithium-ion batteries a possibility for BMW motorcycles?

Gaubatz: They are a very good alternative to AGM batteries when the focus is on low weight and small volume. The starting current draw of up to 300 amps required for a boxer engine cannot yet be achieved by any Lithium-ion battery tested. A further disadvantage lies in the limited temperature range. In order to ensure a long life, the temperature should remain between 68 and 140 degrees F and, naturally, that doesn't happen. Above all, the cold-start capacity in freezing temperatures can't be reached for all motorcycle types.

 

The Lithium-ion battery should have the same capacity as the batteries approved by the manufacturer, otherwise the guaranteed service life of the motorcycle is not reached. For example: With a fully charged 19 amp-hour gel battery, a BMW R1200RT should be able to be started after 200 days of inactivity. A Lithium-ion Battery with 3.8 amp-hours can, in this case, self-discharge after only 40 days, with not enough left to start the engine.

 

The nominal voltage of a Lithium-ion cell is 3.7 volts. The lowest voltage should not fall below 2.8 volts, and the maximum cell voltage should not exceed 4.2 volts. In order to prevent that, it's necessary to build cell balancing and monitoring electronics into each battery.

 

The charging voltage for a motorcycle is designed for an AGM or gel battery. A Lithium-ion battery with four individual cells needs 16.6 volts to be fully charged. This higher voltage cannot be provided in the motorcycle due to various technical reasons. A Lithium-ion battery with only three cells requires 12.6 volts to be fully charged. Therefore, the typical voltage regulator in a motorcycle with values ranging between 14.2 and 14.6 volts is too high. Without matching the output voltage of the regulator, a Lithium-ion battery never gets a full charge, which can ruin the battery. Short circuits due to mechanical damage can lead to thermal "runaway" and cause it to explode.

 

What exactly must be done to be able to apply Lithium-ion technology to motorcycle applications?

Gaubatz: There are Lithium-ion cells with other materials, for example Lithium-iron-phosphate, which have lower cell voltage of 3.2 volts. With regard to the maximum charging voltage of 14.6 volts, they would be more suitable. Another possible measure would be to adjust the voltage regulator.

 

We at BMW Motorrad are using our findings from the E-Scooter project to develop a Lithium-ion starter battery with low temperature starting capacity and durability to meet our customers' needs. Lithium-ion batteries, in their current state, are best used for racing and very weight-sensitive vehicles like the BMW S1000RR.

 

 

The cell in question IS Lithium Iron Phosphate, not Lithium-Ion. So skip to the bottom of Karl-Heinz Guabatz's quote. They're perfectly suitable to motorsports.

 

-MKL

[Richard_D]

I was told my battery tender I used for my BMW, and now use for my Suzuki, is compatible with the Shorai I bought for my KTM. Here's some good info. http://www.shoraipower.com/t-faq.aspx

[EddyQ]

Chris-

 

Yes, this makes sense. Perhaps you had one of the earlier models, but the newer ones have more than enough capacity to spin a motor, even at low temps.

 

-MKL

 

I don't see how this makes sense. According to the ShoraiUsa site, the battery for a '07 GSA is a LFX21L6-BS12 which has a claimed CCA of 315A and 21Ah capacity. For comparison, an Odyssey P680 CCA is 170A and 16Ah capacity. Several sizes smaller Shorai models might be the LFX14A1-BS12 with CCA of 210A and 14Ah capacity. This smaller model still should crank the GSA at temps of 20F according the their claims (but I don't see good data to support low temp operation). So where did Chris do wrong? Did Shorai fall short at predicting performance with earlier models?

 

Best I can tell, the only significant pro to Lithion Iron batteries is that they will hold their voltage better than Lead Acid during cranking. Weight is 1/3, but that isn't much of a win with a 600lb motorcycle. Life, well we will see. The cons include that cranking amps may not be there at cold temps regardless of claimed performance and double the cost.

 

Interesting, none the less. Hope it works out well for you Danny.

[moshe_levy]

Ed-

 

Try as they might, this isn't a direct apples to apples comparison re CCA and AH capacity. I suspect Shorai is advertising this way to give consumers a way to compare, but the behavior of LiFePO4 under load is different from lead acid.

 

As you all know if you've read my posts re batteries I am a huge fan of Enersys (Odyssey) from direct experience over 10 years with literally thousands of their cells (which we use at work).

 

I too do not see a huge point in saving a few pounds on a 600 pound bike like the RT. I do see it mattering more on some bikes, like small enduros where sometimes for packaging purposes the battery tray is very high (under the tank) and saving weight matters.

 

I do not think LiFePO4 is "double the cost" of an Odyssey although it will cost more. I also agree that they will not CHARGE well in extremely cold temps (our tests are -10C and below as the limit) although discharge is -40C in our tests. An Odyssey should be fine discharging the charging down to -40C. Again, our (work) tests are NOT of Shorai, but of commercial cells we use in military grade UPS systems we make.

 

Bottom line is I feel the LiFePO4 has certain advantages which make more sense in some circumstances than in others. The UPSs we are quoting to NASA are now about 85 pounds each - the old one using lead (and older transformer technology) is about 450 pounds. So all of this means less space, higher efficiency, less fuel wasted trucking around all this crap. And the military likes that - alot!

 

-MKL