Battery questions

[cruisin]

So, I have been using the Odyssey PC680 batteries in my RTs and Cs for about 8 years now. My question is, are there any newer batteries out there just as good or better service for less money that one might consider? I'm about due to replace the battery in both bikes right now and want to see if anything new has come along in the past 8 years. I'm getting about 4 years dependable starts and ABS set-up with the Odysseys.

[elkroeger]

Keep an eye on Boeing's Surplus site. You'll soon find some bargains on slightly used Li-ions.

 

All jokes aside, I've always thought the best bang for the buck is your old fashioned lead acid units.

[Rinkydink]

Hey cruisin, you say you get 4 years, do you use a battery tender etc?

[tallman]

AFAIK your still using best choice wrt $ and ROI.

[Michael B]

Hey crusin, you might want to consider a lithium ion battery. The October '12 issue of "ON" magazine did a battery comparo of a traditional Yuasa AGM battery against a Shorai LFX lithium ion against some monster "braille" battery that costs huge bucks. To me the lithium ion was the clear winner...light, powerful, long lasting, and cost effective.

 

Last night I was looking at R1200 RT items at Tourateck-usa's web site and found a Shorai LFX battery for $103.95. Look at: http://www.touratech-usa.com/Store/534/Lights

 

Only problem I see is that you would want to purchase a special battery tender for your Shorai lithium ion battery...good news is that there is one made by Shorai on the web site page above.

 

Barring any real huge negatives, the Shorai lithium will be the next battery that goes into my 12RT. Let us know what you decide.

[cruisin]

rinkydink,

 

I ride regularly most of the winter. The current battery quit providing enough charge for the ABS about three months ago. It is now about 4.5 years old and if it sits for more than three days, I have to put it on the charger to start the bike, but still cannot get enough voltage to initialize the ABS.

 

tallman,

 

I have no idea what all those abbreviations mean. Care to translate?

 

MichaelB,

 

Thanks for the link, I'll take a look.

[elkroeger]

afaik - as far as I know.

wrt - with regard to.

roi - return on investment.

 

omg! did I figure those out myself? Time to turn off the computer (tttotc) and go find something to fix in the garage.

 

Have you looked at the Westcos at Beemer Boneyard?

[moshe_levy]

So, I have been using the Odyssey PC680 batteries in my RTs and Cs for about 8 years now. My question is, are there any newer batteries out there just as good or better service for less money that one might consider?

 

Nope.

 

-MKL

[tallman]

So, I have been using the Odyssey PC680 batteries in my RTs and Cs for about 8 years now. My question is, are there any newer batteries out there just as good or better service for less money that one might consider?

 

Nope.

 

-MKL

 

[sardineone]

Michael B, I've been using a Shorai Li-Fe battery for a season in my backup bike and it's good when it good and not so much in the cold. Holds charge well and in the warm months really cranks well. In cool weather like the mid-fifties, you might have to leave the lights on for 3-5 minutes to warm the battery first. Last weekend my AGM in my BMW would not crank over. After leaving the lights on for a bit on my Moto Guzzi backup bike - it started with it's Shorai Li-Fe! I haven't used a special charger BTW as what's special about the bike's charging system? I've also haven't babied the Shorai as I'm doing my own beta test for my own satisfaction.

[Michael B]

Hey sardineone, I'm not a tekkie like DR, but the problem with your Shorai battery could be your battery tender. Check out the Touratech-usa web site I referenced above. It shows both the Shorai LFX battery, and the Shorai battery tender. Within the tender information is the following:

 

"Battery chargers or tenders with an automatic desulfation mode can damage the cells of the Shorai lithium motorcycle batteries. The best possible battery charger/tender for Shorai LFX is the SHO-BMS01. It uses the 5-pin BMS port in the LFX batteries, in order to monitor, diagnose, and balance the individual cells during charge. It also has an optimized storage mode that will give the longest possible service life to your LFX."

 

Now, I don't have a clue what "automatic desulfation" is, but I wouldn't discount it's importance either. If my next battery is a Shorai lithium, I would also get the tender. I would not want to suffer from the dreaded "automatic desulfation"!!!!! Probably no known medication for that!

 

Lastly, the grounding of Boeing's new 787 planes is in part due to problems with their designed-in lithium ion batteries that power their APU's that when mounted in groups tend to start fires. Something to think about when you're out flying your RT.

 

Hope that helps.

[dirtrider]

Afternoon Michael

 

Automatic desulfation is a higher voltage charge for a short time to disulfate older lead acid batteries.

 

Most new (re modern) uplevel battery tenders either do not have a desulfation cycle or it needs to be manually set to do so.

 

The commonly available Deltron battery tender doesn't have a desulfation cycle.

 

As far as a special charger?-- that is needed (suggested) on the Shorai batteries to obtain maximum charge & to equalize the individual cells. The charging system on the motorcycle doesn't do that either so using a conventional Battery Tender is no different than just riding the bike. A Battery Tender should give about 95% charge, same as the motorcycle charging system.

 

For what it's worth you shouldn't use a desulfation type charger on an Odyssey or BMW OEM battery either.

 

As far as (Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries & Lithium-Ion batteries goes)-- They might show some potential but none have really been in general motorcycle use long enough to prove themselves to me as long term replacements to the tried & true Odyssey battery.

 

The Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries & Lithium-Ion batteries are improving every year & their claim to fame is basically lower weight & usually a smaller overall size but at a higher initial price & somewhat lower cold cranking power. As a rule they don't have good deep cycle traits either (one reason the auto companies have shied away so far) so their use on motorcycles that have a continuous parasitic drain (like onboard computers, anti theft systems, & other kept-alive electronics is limited to shorter storage or sitting times or a battery Tender should be used.

 

With the cost of lead going up every year & the Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries & Lithium Ion battery technology improving every year these will probably start showing up main stream at some point.

 

 

One of the up sides to the newer LiFePO4 batteries is a long shelf life with no maintenance charging required but that can pretty well be said for the Odyssey battery also. This is probably more important to the dealer that has many replacement batteries sitting on the parts shelf for a long period than to the end user that has the (1) battery installed & in use.

 

Personally, when I see the newer (LiFePO4) batteries lasting as long in everyday usage as the tried & true Odyssey & the initial price comes down a bit then that battery type might have a place in some of my dirt bikes but until then I'm letting others be the Beta testers.

 

[sardineone]

Michael, my reference to not babying the Li-Fe battery was just that. No tender attached, but a hour charge on a 2A 12volt charger every 2-3 months. The problem to me seems that the Li-Fe are sensitive to temperature much more than lead-acid. Even at near full charge, they seem to just not like the cold. Just my observation and I just wanted to fore warn you. Don't get me wrong as I really like the weight savings and it cranks at least as good if not better on warm days. BTW from Shorai's FAQ's, their batteries don't sulfate or really need tenders. http://www.shoraipower.com/s.nl/it.I/id.5/.f

[Michael B]

D.R., thanks for such a good explanation for desulfation. Even I could understand it! By the way, you mentioned the Odyssey batteries a few times as a better alternative to my intended Shorai lithium replacement. Why is the Odyssey so good, and if so, what Odyssey would you recommend for a 2011 R1200 RT...my bike built 7/2010...coming up on three year old battery?

 

Sardineone, thanks for the link...I read it, makes sense.

[dirtrider]

Evening Michael

 

 

I really didn't outright say the Odyssey is better (at least I hope I didn't say that). If I did it didn't come out quite right.

 

What I am (was) trying to say is the Odyssey is a long time proven motorcycle battery with a proven history of good starting even in extremely cold weather. It (the Odyssey) also has a proven long life in motorcycle applications. In my mind it is the standard to compare to. (I have a few Odysseys, in some older vehicles, that the Odysseys are over 6 years old now & still going strong, some only see a battery tender once a year at most & are stored for very long periods)

 

On the other hand newer entries like the Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries & Lithium-Ion batteries have not been in general motorcycle usage long enough to prove themselves yet. Heck, they might be as good or even better than the Odyssey but it is going to take a few years yet for them to prove they are. I do know they (Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries & Lithium-Ion batteries) cost more & don't have the cold weather starting ability, as well a not as good for deep cycle or long term slow-drain electronic keep-alive usage.

 

The main stream auto industry hasn’t warmed up to the Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries & Lithium-Ion batteries yet so there are still some issues for general vehicle fitment. Cold starting ability & cost are obviously some of the reasons but millions of $$ are spent every year to remove a few kilograms of weight from vehicles so using a Lithium Iron Phosphate battery or Lithium-Ion battery would make a lot of sense if they believed they were advanced enough for the task.

 

As far as the Odyssey to use-- Good question, I presume it is the same as the older Hexheads (PC-680) but so far I haven't put an Odyssey battery the 2011RT.

 

[moshe_levy]

D.R., thanks for such a good explanation for desulfation. Even I could understand it! By the way, you mentioned the Odyssey batteries a few times as a better alternative to my intended Shorai lithium replacement. Why is the Odyssey so good

 

My company builds UPS systems for the military. As such they are suitable for harsh environment, wide temp ranges, shock, vibration, humidity, and so on. For wide temp / long life applications, there's no other game in town besides Enersys. The Genesis Series is the gold standard in high power lead acid batteries. And the "Odyssey" is basically a low-end Genesis sold to consumers. Why is it better? Because it will last about 6-8 years on average (@ +25C) vs. 3-5 years at most from typical brands. (I should note here that I have personal experience with some that are over 10 years old in motorcycles, still going). Because it can tolerate MUCH wide temp ranges than typical brands, up to +60C when equipped properly (MJ version - not necessary in motorcycle use). Because its shelf life is up to 24 months @ +25C on average, vs. 3-6 months for typical brands. So you don't need a charger to begin with. Because it's got a construction that is suitable to meet military level shock and vibration requirements (MIL-STD-810) which others don't have a chance of surviving. And so on, and so forth. Aside from price, there is really no point in comparing Enersys to your run of the mill motorcycle batteries because, frankly, there is no comparison.

 

-MKL

[Sweendog]

Moshe,

Is there a Genesis version that would be suitable, or is the Odyssey pretty much the only way to go? I'll be getting a new battery this spring, as my current battery is at the 'won't create enough power to enable the ABS' stage.

[moshe_levy]

Consumers will have a harder time finding a Genesis vs. Odyssey. They are sold through larger industrial battery houses and may not be easily available in single piece quantity. It's also total overkill. Just get an Odyssey and be done with it.

 

-MKL

[Camhead in STL]

Just to keep it interesting, the manufacturer (EnerSys) of the Genesis also makes the Odyssey. In fact according to this selection guide (page 2) the Odyssey is an evolution of the Genesis, and there's even a newer series called the Hawker. Doing some research on the EnerSys site shows that the Odyssey IS what they recommend for starter batteries.

[moshe_levy]

Nah, you're getting things confused. Cyclons (what you linked to) are cylindrical cells that are not suitable for powersports in terms of packaging. Hawker is the former name of Enersys, the manufacturer - Hawker Energy became Enersys some years ago. Their literature leaves something to be desired - their products, for the most part, are top notch. Bottom line is consumers with powersports stuff should be getting Odysseys if they're shopping for lead acid type.

 

-MKL

[Sweendog]

Consumers will have a harder time finding a Genesis vs. Odyssey. They are sold through larger industrial battery houses and may not be easily available in single piece quantity. It's also total overkill. Just get an Odyssey and be done with it.

 

-MKL

 

Thanks, I'll stick with that plan. Seems like a small premium to pay to get the best battery.

[RTinNC]

So, I have been using the Odyssey PC680 batteries in my RTs and Cs for about 8 years now. My question is, are there any newer batteries out there just as good or better service for less money that one might consider? I'm about due to replace the battery in both bikes right now and want to see if anything new has come along in the past 8 years. I'm getting about 4 years dependable starts and ABS set-up with the Odysseys.

 

I have had great luck with Bike Master Tru-gel batteries in my bikes. My dealer recommended them ....longer warranty than BMW batteries and less $$. They are a perfect fit replacement with no adjusting or shimming whatsoever.

 

 

You can probably find them for less $$ but this was a quick search.

http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/14/70/943/28402/20/PITEM/BikeMaster-TruGel-Battery-2006-BMW-R1200RT-Parts.aspx

 

[Camhead in STL]

I beg to differ... on page #2 (fourth page of pdf), it clearly shows the evolution from the perspective of Enersys.

 

Cyclon -> Monobloc -> Genesis -> Odyssey -> Hawker XT

[moshe_levy]

Not really. Those cells each target different markets, mostly due to packaging. They are vastly different in terms of specifications and the environments they're suited for. The company makes great products with few exceptions. The Monoblocs are complete crap - we found that out the hard way with Raytheon and Boeing.

 

-MKL

[PAS]

 

A positive Odyssey PC 680 story. I made an online purchase and when it came to install the battery I couldnt thread the bolt into the positive thread. It looked like the brass threads had been ruined somehow.

 

I contacted the seller and he said to return it for a replacement Instead I thought I would call the factory customer service. The gal I spoke to asked if I could take pictures of the problem and I did so. They replied back saying the pictures were good and they never heard of such a thing happening and they would get back to me.

 

Two days later I called and asked if they would approve of me trying to retap the threads. They agreed saying since I made them aware of the problem to give it a try and they would replace the battery if it didnt work out.

 

It turned out that the threads had some excess glue in them that happened during assembly. The glue looked like cross threaded brass and fooled me. It came right out and everything was fine.

 

I called the seller to tell him what happened and to be on the look out for any future problems and then I contacted the factory to tell them all was fine.

 

About two weeks later I got an email from the customer support dept telling me that due to the unusual circumstances I encountered they offered me an additional new battery up to the PC 925 for free, shipping included. I accepted their offer and got a second 680 within a few days. I didnt want to get too greedy and go for the 925.

They must have contacted the supplier of the terminals and found that this does happen on occasion and they missed this one.

 

Now both my 81 R100RT and 02 R1150RT have new PC 680's in them.

[RSlacker]

To answer the question on the specialty of the charging system for the Shorai, it comes down to the design of the battery itself. The battery uses Li-Fe plates inside the plastic casing. When the battery comes in the box it's about 70% charged, but the Shorai charger will charge each plate or, "cell" (as the Shorai folks like to call them) evenly so the battery is basically charged little by little.