The Irony - I think I killed my Enersys Battery

[moshe_levy]

All-

 

Some of you followed my recent breakdown in EBF, WV over on the rides forum. Robbed me of the latter half of the last day of my Jim Ford course, easily the best part of the trip. The cause? Ultimately traced to a totally dead battery.

 

But not just any battery. An Enersys Genesis XE. See Genesis PDF Datasheet if not familiar.

 

In speaking with Enersys reps over the years, I was always under the assumption that the Odyssey line we all know and love is basically a consumer version of the Genesis my company uses for harsh environment UPS. The Genesis has been absolutely stone cold reliable for us, coming back after 10-12 years in the desert in the worst types of environments (hot, high vibration, not much care and feeding) and still going strong.

 

Last winter when my OEM Exide bit the dust, I put a Genesis XE we had in stock a work in the RT, expecting the usual stellar performance. I actually expected it to outlast the bike - instead, it pretty much spoiled about 30% of the trip, plus the expenses and headache associated with towing and repairing on the road.

 

What went wrong? Well, I think I have found the answer, and it looks like the blame is all mine.

 

In reading the Genesis literature more closely, what I see is:

 

"In a float or standby application the CV charger should be set at 13.5V to 13.8V at 25ºC (77ºF). For a cyclic application, the charge voltage should be set between 14.4V and 15V at 25ºC (77ºF). In both cases, the linearized temperature compensation factor is ±24mV per battery per ºC variation from 25ºC (77ºF). The higher the

temperature the lower the charge voltage should be and vice versa."

 

Unless I'm mistaken the RT regularly charges around 13.9-14.1 VDC - much lower than recommended here. And my guess is as a result, the plates became sulfated and caused catastrophic failure in only about 10 months of use.

 

I'd like to talk to Enersys about this to see if my theory is correct, but so far I'm blaming myself for this mishap.

 

The upside is Anton had Odysseys in stock, so that's what I've got as a replacement. I have the dead XE here and plan to send it to Enersys for an analysis. I will report any findings.

 

-MKL

 

 

[Guest Kakugo]

Geez, I have my brand new Odyssey charging in the workshop as we speak and I have all sorts of terrible thoughts in my head now. Thanks a lot!

 

Joking aside, it's pretty much incredible what just 1V of difference will do to a battery or how even minute lead impurities will cause a cell to fall in a very short time (Which I suspect is what is killing my two years old Yuasa).

[moshe_levy]

It IS always possible that I just happened to get a bad unit - it doesn't happen often with them, but it does and can happen. Perhaps that's all there is to it. I need to talk to them to figure it out.

 

-MKL

[moshe_levy]

The plot thickens. Enersys has outstanding tech help via phone. I told them my story this morning. Their take: That the Genesis and Odyssey are in fact pretty much the same. The issue, they think, is the tender I use.

 

I use an old Deltran battery tender. Not an approved tender on their list Enersys Approved List The approval is due to the higher-than-normal float voltage (13.5-13.8) they want to see. The theory now is, the Deltran (mine puts out about 13A) actually pulls the battery down, leading to sulfation and early death.

 

They gave me some instructions to see if I can revise the Genesis. I'll report back my findings. But looks like I'm going to be charger-shopping today.

 

-MKL

[4wheeldog]

It is my (Admittedly subjective) opinion that battery tenders destroy more batteries of all types than they extend the life.

 

Either they cook, or they are sulfated by constant low level charging. In my opinion, you are better off only using a tender intermittently, for 12 hours once every 3 weeks when the bike is out of service. JMHO. YMMV.

[moshe_levy]

Yeah, after spending quite a bit of time getting educated by tech support, I unplugged the Deltran and ordered a proper Enersys branded charger from Amazon. $55. And they said they recommend leaving it on said charger whenever the bike is parked. So, I'm going to follow their advice....

 

-MKL

[Guest Kakugo]

The problem with that list is that is very US-biased... the only battery charger among those available in Europe is the Tecmate and that's a "workshop" battery charger. You can buy it alright, but that's not really meant for home users.

Would be good to have an Euro list as well...

[moshe_levy]

Call them - nobody's got better tech service than this company. They will help.

 

-MKL

[David13]

So when are you going to post about the tow story? I'm waiting to hear the story about the tow.

I had my own tow experience last year. It was my only breakdown in the last 40 years, which may be some type of world record.

Or, I overdo the maintenance.

dc

[mnTwin]

Yeah, after spending quite a bit of time getting educated by tech support, I unplugged the Deltran and ordered a proper Enersys branded charger from Amazon. $55. And they said they recommend leaving it on said charger whenever the bike is parked. So, I'm going to follow their advice....

 

-MKL

 

Moshe, would you post a link for the Enersys charger?

[Bill_Walker]

Sounds like I need a new charger for my PC-680. Bummer, since I already own three Battery Tenders.

[smiller]

Note that the Battery Tender Plus model has a higher absorption voltage setting so as to be compatible with AGM batteries. If you were using an older unit then it may have been the non-plus model. In any event there's nothing magical about being on a list, a Battery Tender (or at least my battery Tender) has an absorption charge voltage of 14.5 volts and floats at 13.5, so it should be fine. A battery intended for automotive applications isn't that picky, or if it is it shouldn't be.

 

That said I think it is extremely doubtful that even the older Battery Tender model (assuming that it was working correctly) damaged your battery to the point of total failure in ten months. My guess would be that it is more likely you simply got the rare bad unit. It happens, even with premium brands. Will Enersys not support a warranty claim? I couldn't find warranty info on their site but as an example Odyssey considers charging abuse to be a float voltage outside of the range of 13.5 to 13.8 and/or an absorption charge outside the range of 14.0 to 14.7 and most decent modern chargers can meet that spec, including the original Battery Tender. I would be submitting a warranty claim rather than jumping to assume responsibility, unless you have verified that your charger is in fact far outside of the allowable range (and it probably isn't unless it is faulty.)

[MT Wallet]

Ok battery gurus here's a question:I bought a cheap 12V lead acid battery and the instructions said NOT to charge it with more than a trickle charge of 2 amps. Can someone explain that? I've been using it for a trail camera and in less than 1 week in temps ranging from 36 to 64 the battery went down to 2.3 volts and failed to operate the camera. Thoughts or ideas? Bad battery? Last 2 season I used a weak oddessy and it never did that.

[johnlt]

I never use any kind of battery tender on the Odyssey batteries I've had. I only use BTs on lead acid and gel batteries. I did a cold-soak of 8 months on my old KLR with the Odyssey battery and it cranked right up no problem. Shelf life of the charge is excellent.

[roger 04 rt]

All-

 

Some of you followed my recent breakdown in EBF, WV over on the rides forum. Robbed me of the latter half of the last day of my Jim Ford course, easily the best part of the trip. The cause? Ultimately traced to a totally dead battery.

 

But not just any battery. An Enersys Genesis XE. See Genesis PDF Datasheet if not familiar.

 

In speaking with Enersys reps over the years, I was always under the assumption that the Odyssey line we all know and love is basically a consumer version of the Genesis my company uses for harsh environment UPS. The Genesis has been absolutely stone cold reliable for us, coming back after 10-12 years in the desert in the worst types of environments (hot, high vibration, not much care and feeding) and still going strong.

 

Last winter when my OEM Exide bit the dust, I put a Genesis XE we had in stock a work in the RT, expecting the usual stellar performance. I actually expected it to outlast the bike - instead, it pretty much spoiled about 30% of the trip, plus the expenses and headache associated with towing and repairing on the road.

 

What went wrong? Well, I think I have found the answer, and it looks like the blame is all mine.

 

In reading the Genesis literature more closely, what I see is:

 

"In a float or standby application the CV charger should be set at 13.5V to 13.8V at 25ºC (77ºF). For a cyclic application, the charge voltage should be set between 14.4V and 15V at 25ºC (77ºF). In both cases, the linearized temperature compensation factor is ±24mV per battery per ºC variation from 25ºC (77ºF). The higher the

temperature the lower the charge voltage should be and vice versa."

 

Unless I'm mistaken the RT regularly charges around 13.9-14.1 VDC - much lower than recommended here. And my guess is as a result, the plates became sulfated and caused catastrophic failure in only about 10 months of use.

 

I'd like to talk to Enersys about this to see if my theory is correct, but so far I'm blaming myself for this mishap.

 

The upside is Anton had Odysseys in stock, so that's what I've got as a replacement. I have the dead XE here and plan to send it to Enersys for an analysis. I will report any findings.

 

-MKL

 

 

Hi MKL,

I believe I did the same thing. My R1150RT charges at under 14V most of the time and I run a lot of tests on my bike so I like to keep the battery "topped up" with a BT Jr.

 

Although the OCV of my battery holds at 12.9V, as soon as the lights go on it drops to 12.1V and when the starter kicks in for half a second it drops to about 7V. I did a brief discharge/alternator recharge and the voltage with lights on came back.

 

I've bought some discharge resistors and an Odyssey charger and I'm going to recondition the battery next week.

 

If you back up half a page in this thread you can see what the Odyssey people wrote to me: http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=856252#Post856252.

 

RB

[DiggerJim]

Sounds like I need a new charger for my PC-680. Bummer, since I already own three Battery Tenders.

I use the Battery Tender Jr on my PC-680s. Two bikes, 5yrs on one and 2yrs on the other battery. Both are still working fine. They're on the BTJr all thru the winter (except for when I get out to ride in between snowstorms.

[EddyQ]

I use an old Deltran battery tender. Not an approved tender on their list Enersys Approved List The approval is due to the higher-than-normal float voltage (13.5-13.8) they want to see. The theory now is, the Deltran (mine puts out about 13A) actually pulls the battery down, leading to sulfation and early death.

 

I'm not buying it. The only way a charger can drain a battery is that the voltage is too low such that current does not flow. If your Deltran is putting out anything close to 13A, then it is charging the battery.

 

So why would anyone need to charge a Odyssey? It says in the literature they can sit in the freezing cold for a year and not loose much charge. With every battery I ever had, my routine is to take the battery into my warm basement for the winter. Put a charger on it over night every 2-3 weeks (I do not leave the charger on it). But after reading the Odyssey manual, I'm tempted to leave it disconnected in the bike for the winter.

[BFish]

this forum is remarkable for the knowledge of the group. to me, this is a fascinating battery thread. admittedly, i don't have a f'n clue what you're all talking about, but i enjoy trying to . my tender so far works fine, but i can't remember the battery brand i have.

[smiller]

my tender so far works fine, but i can't remember the battery brand i have.

We like to obsess about things here. And I'm amused by the theme that if any non-Odyssey battery dies in ten months it must be 'Chinese junk', but if an Odyssey dies early it can only be because the charging voltage was a few tenths of a volt off.

[Stan Walker]

I'm amused by the theme that if any non-Odyssey battery dies in ten months it must be 'Chinese junk', but if an Odyssey dies early it can only be because the charging voltage was a few tenths of a volt off

 

+1

 

I've bought 2 Odyssey batteries, both are still in service. One is 8 years old (installed Sept 05), the other only 4 years old (installed May 09). Both have only been installed in RT's with their 'low' charging voltage. Both has been connected to a Battery Tender (original model) about once a month for about 24 hours whenever I felt guilty about not ridding them.

 

Stan

[Stan Walker]

So why would anyone need to charge a Odyssey?

 

Can't speak to the 1200's, but the R1100RT and R1150RT have electronics that continue to draw modest amounts of current even with the ignition off. That coupled with self discharge of the battery makes it prudent to top up the charge every month or two if the bike has not been ridden.

 

Stan

[David13]

Is it knowledge, or is it obsession?

I never used a battery charger in my life, and I'm old. And I never had a problem.

I have had cars and bikes sit for as much as 3 months and start on the first crank. Never a dead battery.

If anything was to sit longer than that, I took out the battery, and usually got a new one when I started it again.

When I got any indication that the battery was not good, I got a new one. Maybe one or two year, maybe 3. On some cars today, the battery will last 5 or 7 years. And if it was weak, I get a new one.

So. Battery chargers. Who cares? Who needs them? Not me.

dc

[EddyQ]

Unless I'm mistaken the RT regularly charges around 13.9-14.1 VDC - much lower than recommended here. And my guess is as a result, the plates became sulfated and caused catastrophic failure in only about 10 months of use.

 

The Energysys manual says the absorbtion voltage for proper charging is ideally 14.7V. If you go lower, them likely the absorbtion isn't going to happen nearly as fast, but it will happen as long as the voltage doesn't drop below the float level of 13.6V. And at this lower voltage, sulfur is likely to build a more. And it appears that the battery does need a decent amount of charging power in order to prevent sulfur build up. I'd bet your RT alternator has enough voltage and current (power) to prevent sulfur build up. However, your charger may have a timer which switches to float far before full charge is accomplished. Then, the float or trickle charge causes a bunch of sulfur to accumulate.

 

As for the current capability of your charger, I think you never need the 6A charger unless you drain the battery a lot. They show the bulk current should be a min of 0.4*C10 = 6A. But your battery wasn't ever deep cycled, so every time you charge the battery it should jump immediately into absorbtion mode where the current is less. You likely can take any charger that provides 13.8 - 14.7V and charge the battery. Unfortunately, smart chargers switch to float far to early and this battery isn't happy with that. You would have to reset the charger every time it pre-maturely switches to float until the 16-24 hrs has passed in order to be sure your Energysys battery is charged (or buy their charger).

 

Well, at least that is how I read all this. I'd bet, leaving a charger trickling killed the battery. It happens to cheap batteries too.

[Endobob]

...Well, at least that is how I read all this. I'd bet, leaving a charger trickling killed the battery. It happens to cheap batteries too.

 

I replace a battery in my '02 KRS with the Odyssey PC-680 almost 2 years ago and when not riding the bike it is always on a battery charger that came with the bike when I bought it used in '05. The charger has no name on it, has a sticker "made in china", and on the front says "Advanced Battery Charging System - Programmed for BMW Gel Batteries". It has a red charging light and a green storage light under which it says "12V, 1.25A".

 

Should I be worried? Reading this thread I sense I either should use no charging system at all or buy another charger listed/approved by the manufacturer of the battery.

[roger 04 rt]

my tender so far works fine, but i can't remember the battery brand i have.

We like to obsess about things here. And I'm amused by the theme that if any non-Odyssey battery dies in ten months it must be 'Chinese junk', but if an Odyssey dies early it can only be because the charging voltage was a few tenths of a volt off.

 

In my case, I don't believe that my battery is dead, far from it. The lights are bright and the starter turns over quickly. But I also believe, based on the logs that I have, that it has been undercharged by half a volt or so by the alternator, and undercharged by 5 amps by my battery tender jr.

 

I also already know that low starting voltage results in a weak start due to the injector valves opening slowly. I've boosted the voltage and had a better start.

 

Right now, at key on, my "fully charged" battery drops from 12.9V to 12.1V. My plan is to follow the odyssey reconditioning procedure which calls for a 2-3 amp discharge to 10V followed by a 5 amp recharge to 14.5V. (I made a short discharge followed by alternator discharge, and saw improvement.

 

Once I've done the reconditioning next week I'll post the key-on battery voltage. Who knows, it may work or it may not. But if Odyssey states that low charging voltages and currents will "sulfate" the battery, as they're the designer and manufacturer, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt for the moment.

 

RB

[Guest Kakugo]

Very interest thread... and I agree with all those who say, perhaps, we are overthinking the matter.

 

Before buying the Odyssey I have always run my vehicles on Yuasa batteries, when size was available. My car came with a Yuasa battery (which I later discovered is a tractor battery ) which lasted seven years and I will definitely buy another Yuasa tractor battery for it.

 

The 51913 Yuasa I just replaced in my RT was very likely a faulty unit. I haven't run any detailed test yet, but looking inside the the filler holes it's apparent two cells have "something wrong" with the them. I could have been lead impurities, or minuscule scales causing internal shorts... without a proper disassemble (which I won't do) who knows.

 

All my batteries, car or bike, have always been maintained with TecMate chargers, which are Yuasa approved in Europe and the only chargers recommended by Honda here.

 

There are some interesting points being made over the years according to which trickle chargers will shorten a battery lifespan but I don't think Honda would recommend a product that can harm a battery during winter storage or that Yuasa would encourage customers to use the wrong charger.

[EddyQ]

I replace a battery in my '02 KRS with the Odyssey PC-680 almost 2 years ago and when not riding the bike it is always on a battery charger that came with the bike when I bought it used in '05. The charger has no name on it, has a sticker "made in china", and on the front says "Advanced Battery Charging System - Programmed for BMW Gel Batteries". It has a red charging light and a green storage light under which it says "12V, 1.25A".

 

Should I be worried? Reading this thread I sense I either should use no charging system at all or buy another charger listed/approved by the manufacturer of the battery.

 

It seems to me, it is bad for this battery if trickle charged when not 100% charged. If 100% charged, there is no issue.

My charger is the BMW Advanced Battery charger, which sounds a lot like your charger. Capable of 1.25A. This is far below the recommended bulk charging current of 6A min. If you are like me, my battery never gets very low. So, with a battery that is 80-100% charged to start with, the low 1.25A (if on long enough to bring the battery to 100%) would likely be fine to top off the battery. But if the battery charger switches to a trickle early, when 100% charge is not reached, then you may be at risk if you leave it for long durations.

 

According to the literature, simply checking the open circuit voltage will tell you the state of charge. 100%=12.84V or higher.

50%= 12.2V. Do you have an accurate voltmeter? I've got a nice Fluke DVM and not certain it is accurate enough. If your not certain of your measurement, this method isn't going to help you.

 

I'm not going to risk it and only used the charger for charging no more than over night or shut it off when the green light goes on. Storage, I plan to let the battery sit without charging for all winter.

 

If I think the battery needs a serious charge, I'm putting it in the bike and taking a long ride. The alternator will likely produce enough voltage such that 10's of amps will flow into a low battery. With that high current, the manual says the battery will take short time to charge.

 

Again, I am no battery expert and this battery manual is confusing. This is how I read it.

[LBump]

Is it knowledge, or is it obsession?

I never used a battery charger in my life, and I'm old. And I never had a problem.

I have had cars and bikes sit for as much as 3 months and start on the first crank. Never a dead battery.

If anything was to sit longer than that, I took out the battery, and usually got a new one when I started it again.

When I got any indication that the battery was not good, I got a new one. Maybe one or two year, maybe 3. On some cars today, the battery will last 5 or 7 years. And if it was weak, I get a new one.

So. Battery chargers. Who cares? Who needs them? Not me.

dc

 

 

Non moto experience...

I recently replaced the battery in the 'ol van around here... an Interstate, it lasted 146 months! I suppose if I kept it on a charger it would have lasted longer, but I didn't care at that point.

 

 

[roger 04 rt]

...

 

According to the literature, simply checking the open circuit voltage will tell you the state of charge. 100%=12.84V or higher.

50%= 12.2V. Do you have an accurate voltmeter? I've got a nice Fluke DVM and not certain it is accurate enough. If your not certain of your measurement, this method isn't going to help you.

 

...

 

That's correct, and mine reads about 12.9V so I don't think it's a foolproof measurement. I'll know better after I cycle my battery. In my case though, any load of a few amps drops the voltage quickly to 12.1 to 12.2 V.

[EddyQ]

That's correct, and mine reads about 12.9V so I don't think it's a foolproof measurement. I'll know better after I cycle my battery. In my case though, any load of a few amps drops the voltage quickly to 12.1 to 12.2 V.

 

Roger, that definatle doesn't make sense for a good battery that is suppose to have 0.008 ohm internal resistance which would take 13 amps to drop the voltage 0.1V. I'd be interested to hear your results of reconditioning.

 

 

[roger 04 rt]

That's correct, and mine reads about 12.9V so I don't think it's a foolproof measurement. I'll know better after I cycle my battery. In my case though, any load of a few amps drops the voltage quickly to 12.1 to 12.2 V.

 

Roger, that definatle doesn't make sense for a good battery that is suppose to have 0.008 ohm internal resistance which would take 13 amps to drop the voltage 0.1V. I'd be interested to hear your results of reconditioning.

 

 

I agree with your math. Now, with hindsight, I'm amazed that I hadn't spotted the drop in voltage six-nine months ago.

 

However, when my bike started taking longer to start, the symptom was my AFR data from the LC-1 ran lean, and the GS-911 showed no spark advance. It only happened once a day so I took the proverbial "month of Sundays" to figure it out.

 

Looking back, I knew that low injector voltage was a primary cause of leanness during Open Loop fueling. The Motronic compensates, just not enough. I did manage to learn along the way that the Motronic is smart enough to sense rough running at start up and leave the spark timing at zero degrees--clever.

 

Now the questions are: have I fried the battery or can it be reconditioned, and is my starter's peak load too great. Time will tell.

[EddyQ]

Interestingly, I just checked my 07RT (with PC680) and the voltage is 12.9V. With the key on, which turns on the electronics and my Motolights (~ 7W each), the voltage dropped to 12.4. This is more than I would expect. I ride twice a day commuting, so the battery should be topped off all the time. hmmmm

[moshe_levy]

I got a nice e-mail from Enersys on Battery 101. To share with you all:

 

"Thank you for contacting EnerSys/ODYSSEY. It was very nice speaking with you.

 

http://shop.odysseybattery.com/p/pc680-p is the link to the PC680 which is comparable both in performance and dimensions to the Genesis XE16 which is manufactured using the same TPPL Technology as the ODYSSEY product line.

 

Proper charge maintenance is critical to maximizing the life and performance of the TPPL ODYSSEY battery. Per our discussion her is my ODYSSEY Battery 101…

 

Please note that most batteries are considered fully charged at 12.6-12.7V OCV. The usable energy of the ODYSSEY battery is from 11.2V (0% state of charge) OCV to 12.84V OCV (Open Circuit Voltage should be checked after a minimum of 6-8 hours rest period with no loads) or higher. When the battery goes below 10.0V OCV, you are getting into the chemical part of the battery and can cause permanent damage. At less than 8.0V the ODYSSEY limited warranty deems the battery over-discharged due to abuse or neglect. The ODYSSEY program approved charger/maintainer can maintain the battery indefinitely in or out of the application. If the battery becomes over-discharged (below 11.0V OCV resting voltage, no loads applied) then the sooner the battery can be fully charged the more likely it can be recovered. If the battery remains connected to the application during storage (winter storage for example) or extended periods of non-use, then a maintainer charger would be required.

 

The list of approved 12V chargers is linked on the ODYSSEY website Product Support page due to the many chargers that are programmed for the vast majority of batteries on the market that prefer low amp charging and lower float voltages that do not fully charge or maintain the ODYSSEY battery properly. Printed on the top label of the battery is the charging voltage ranges recommended for the battery. The recommended minimum charging current for an ODYSSEY battery is 40% of the 10 hour amp hour rating of the battery for cyclic applications (about 6A for a single 16Ah rated PC680), a constant float voltage of 13.5-13.8V is required and no constant voltages exceeding 15.0V in any kind of de-sulfation/reconditioning/equalize mode are recommended. At greater than 15.0V the battery can overcharge, overheat, and/or go into thermal runaway. Maintaining the battery in float mode at less than 13.5V will bring the battery down and maintain it in an undercharged condition causing sulfation and premature failure. Lower amp (less than recommended charging current based on the battery size) maintainers that have the correct float voltage requirements can be used to top off and maintain any ODYSSEY battery that is already at a high or full state of charge and to counteract the parasitic loads of the application.

 

For seasonal applications (non-daily use applications that set for more than 3 days in a row consistently) frequent use of an approved maintainer that meets the charge voltage requirements noted in the previous paragraph is highly recommended during the season. The preferred storage method is to fully charge the battery before storing and disconnect the battery from the application (shelf storage mode). Stored in or out of the application with no loads, the battery would not require charging for up to 2 years at 77°F or until it reaches 12.0V, whichever comes first. The self discharge rate increases significantly for temperatures above 25°C (77°F) and for every 10°C (18°F) temperature increase the storage time to recharge is decreased by half. Charge maintenance is critical to maximizing the life and performance of the battery. Freezing will not harm the battery and self discharge rates reduce significantly at colder temperatures.

 

It is recommended that the ODYSSEY battery be charged if it is less than 12.65V before putting it into use per the ODYSSEY Owner’s Manual (link provided on website Literature page for your reference). Most standard alternators/stators are not meant to be deep discharge recovery chargers and can damage the alternator/stator as well as not fully charging the battery with limited use. The Cyclic Charge Voltage range printed on the top label of the battery is the recommended voltage at the battery from the applications charging system (alternator or stator). At less than 14.1V the battery may not be getting fully charged for infrequently used applications. You can verify the battery voltage by checking the voltage at the battery at least 8 hours after application use (or off charge) and if the battery voltage is not at least 12.84V then the battery is not considered fully charged. Voltage readings taken right off charge or after use (alternator/stator charging) will be inflated and inaccurate so for a true OCV reading, you should wait at least 8 hours before checking the voltage (OCV) with 24 hours being preferred."

 

Two more points: First, the Genesis I have is not generally sold to the general public and is warrantied (I believe) for UPS applications (which is what we use it for at work) not powersports (so Enersys told me). Second, we tried to revive it using the manual's instructions, and it's just completely and totally dead. I imagine completely sulfated or otherwise damaged beyond repair.

 

Truth me told, I think I just got lucky and got a bad one. So many of my bikes and friends' bikes have Enersys for many, many trouble free years. You all know me as a big cheerleader for that brand. Typical, Murphy's Law that I of all people get the bad one!

 

My new Odyssey charger (just to play it safe): Odyssey Charger

 

One more point: Shelf life of these is excellent but some of you seem to be making the case that it's capable of sitting in the cold for 12 months, etc. Shelf life decreases with HEAT, not with cold. These Enersys batteries have about 3-4x the average battery's shelf life measured at +25C and the advantage grows as ambient heat goes up. Parasitic draws on the bike make leaving it untended for months on end a bad idea, cold, heat, or otherwise.

 

-MKL

[Bill_Walker]

My new Odyssey charger (just to play it safe): Odyssey Charger

 

I bought the same charger. Compared to a Deltran Battery Tender Plus, it's considerably larger, and it also has a fan that runs continuously while in use, even while maintaining charge. So it's a little annoying. But hey, if it works better, so be it!

[smiller]

"http://shop.odysseybattery.com/p/pc680-p is the link to the PC680 which is comparable both in performance and dimensions to the Genesis XE16 which is manufactured using the same TPPL Technology as the ODYSSEY product line."

This is somewhat ambiguous as 'comparable' and 'using the same technology' doesn't address whether there might be differences that could affect the longevity of the Genesis battery in an automotive application, such as perhaps the Odyssey line (being designed for powersports applications) are designed with greater vibration resistance than a battery intended for UPS service. The response is informative, but also boilerplate and didn't address factors such as this. In any event it seems probable that the failure was related to something other than just the charging regimen.

[moshe_levy]

The XE Genesis I had is the most indestructible VRLA battery I know of. We've had it on units qualified to the military's harshest vibration & shock standards (MIL-STD-810, 167, and 901). So the consumer version (Odyssey) is CERTAINLY not going to be built to a higher standard in that realm.

 

I don't expect her to write an encyclopedia to me. I had a bad battery and they have a way out re my charger, which (when I was on the phone with her and taking measurements) clearly didn't meet the minimum threshold required here.

 

Either way it's done, and the REAL story is how I got out of EBF, WV and the adventure that ensued after I broke down. Surely I will write an article for BMW-ON about this.

 

-MKL

[smiller]

The XE Genesis I had is the most indestructible VRLA battery I know of.

Well, not that particular one . But regardless of the reason it always sucks to have a trip messed up. Just goes to show that you can plan and plan and still have something come from out of left field. On the bright side at least you got some good material for an article.

[moshe_levy]

I did indeed. Think Deliverance. And then evolve backwards from there!

 

-MKL

[Guest Kakugo]

Call them - nobody's got better tech service than this company. They will help.

 

-MKL

 

Given the difference in time fuse, I dropped them an email.

I got an extremely interesting and detailed reply.

 

First thing, required float voltage range for the PC680 is 13.5-13.8V. My ancient Optimate 3SP puts out 13.6V in this state so no worries here. The kind people at Enersys stressed this is the most important requirement in a battery charger and under no circumstances a charger putting out 13.4V or less should be used as it will cause sulfation and hence battery failure.

 

Second thing, 6A is not a requirement for regular maintenance but only to recover deeply discharged batteries.

In short, as long as your charger puts out 13.5V or more in float state and you don't let your battery discharge too much, you'll be fine with what you have.

 

Now, as for battery chargers for us living in the Old World... Enersys advises using either the AccuMate Pro 12V-7A-S or any CTEK charger with the "Snowflake" function.

 

Hope this helped you out.

[roger 04 rt]

I believe that the Battery Tender Jr I've been using has a float voltage between 13.0 and 13.2 volts ...

[racer7]

Like Moshe I'm a huge fan of Odyssey stuff- used them for years in track cars (the 680 works fine for many but if you want more cranking punch the 920 provides more though its too big for a bike) with no problems except learning that they need a charger designed for their requirements, not something designed for wet batteries. Can't easily kill them and they resist heat, vibration and deep discharge better than other stuff. They're in all 4 BMWs in the fleet though not yet in my antique Honda (no good fit though I modernized its reg/rect).

 

As many times as its been said, I wonder why anyone keeps thinking they can use some old style charger with them. Also wonder why anyone would dispute the makers stated requirements, especially when having only their own anecdotal, unscientific info- "gee, it didn't die when I did (fill in the blank)" Enersys doesn't sell all that many chargers and has nothing to gain by telling folks to use something not needed to ensure help ensure reliability- its that rep that sells their product and makes skeptics into converts (I wasn't thrilled with the price when I bought my first one a long time ago- now I don't even think about using anything else because I think they're a relative bargain).

 

After futzing with wet batteries for most of my life, I've come to appreciate that the Enersys stuff never leaks past a post and corrodes a terminal or cable, etc etc, also.

 

If you happen to have one of those old 10A car chargers from the 70s that has a Maintenance Free switch, those work well on Odyssey batts that are deep discharged- so if your only suitable charger is a 2 A small one, keep that old 10A for the day you deep discharge your Odyssey. I used mine to recover deeply discharged ones from track use many times- BUT you have to watch it and cut it off manually- they don't cycle correctly on auto- but they do put out 15.0V and enough current to do a 680 or 920 with no problems. Check yours for voltage output to be sure you're OK if you do this- don't want to be too high and ruin a battery.

 

Moshe- look forward to your episode writeup- sounds like it will be some good schooling for those of us who regularly go to WV to ride (some of the very best stuff in the east is there).

[roger 04 rt]

Since there are a couple similar threads going, I'll post this here too.

 

To recondition its AGM batteries, Odyssey recommends discharging the battery at or slower than the 5-hour rate to a final voltage of 10.02V.

 

The PC680 is a 16 aH battery so the 5 hr rate is about 3 amps. I used a 6 ohm resistor and the discharge started at 2 amps, averaging 1.8 amps. For a fully charged battery, it should have taken just under 9 hours to discharge. The Open Circuit Voltage at start was 12.9V which theoretically indicates a full charge.

 

It took about 6 hours to get to 10 volts. My "fully charged" battery (by the alternator and then BT Jr.) sourced 11 amp-hours or 70% of the claimed 16 amp-hours capacity.

 

(Coming at it a different way, using the AGM curves for discharge-rate vs voltage, would say the 12.1 volts I get with the headlight on means that it is about 60-65% charged.)

 

I started recharging it this morning with the Odyssey 12 amp charger. After that Odyssey says to discharge it again and see how many amp-hours to 10.02V, doing it up to five times or until it stops improving.

RB

[EddyQ]

I'm interested in your result Roger. I did a bit more research on lead-acid battery internal resistance and it is not constant, especially at low current. No idea what conditions that Enersys is using to measure 0.008 ohms. But, this test is far more informative than previous tests with simple ignition key-on current.

[EddyQ]

As many times as its been said, I wonder why anyone keeps thinking they can use some old style charger with them. Also wonder why anyone would dispute the makers stated requirements, especially when having only their own anecdotal, unscientific info- "gee, it didn't die when I did (fill in the blank)"

 

Maybe because Enersys supplied data is full of BS statements of how robust and essentually bullet proof their product is. They could provide information on what actual damage could be expected with less than ideal conditions, but don't. Does the manual say a 2Amp charger will kill a PC680? No, it says it will not charge it completely and if left on the charger damage will result (as will a 13A charger that doesn't charge it completely). They don't even give you a clue as to the load to your alternator under certain conditions. They say an altenator voltage of 14.2 is fine, but what about 13.8? They say the internal resistance is extremely low, like 0.008ohms. But I measured 10x that. Is my battery near dead? No clue. "gee, it didn't die when I charged with my old 10A car charger from the 70's" I here ya race7. But when a manufacturer mixes sales pitches with technical info, folks wonder the validity of the info. You seem to have more experience than most with these batteries (including me). So it is a no brainer for you what will work and what will not. Some of us struggle a bit more and make mistakes.

 

I very much like my PC680 due to its observed cranking power hot and cold. The tech manual has a lot more info than a lot of other supplers offer. So far, I have nothing to complain about with Enersys and their PC680. I guess I am a fan also. But when someone's PC680 dies in 10 months, I worry and wonder. Should I upgrade my 2A charger at Christmas? I don't know.

[terryofperry]

Where is the .008 ohms coming from and how does one go about measuring the internal resistance of the battery?

 

Thanks

 

Terry

[EddyQ]

Where is the .008 ohms coming from and how does one go about measuring the internal resistance of the battery?

 

page 6-7 in the genesis manual (see original post for link) has an example. Basically ohms law.

Change in voltage divided by change in current is resistance. So if your battery voltage was 12.9V with no current and 12.2V with 5 amps, then the internal resistance is (12.7-12.2)/5= 0.5/5 = 0.1 ohms

 

But when Enersys says the battery has an internal resistance of 0.008 ohms, they likely are measuring voltage deltas with currents of 40-50Amps or where the measurement shows the best results. It is good to know at high current, since that is where your starter will need a low resistance.

[roger 04 rt]

Charged the battery overnight.

 

Odyssey PC680 Battery Voltage Charging Update

 

RB

[EddyQ]

There is some very interesting reading at this link : LINK

 

Jump to section 16

[terryofperry]

Please be very careful trying to de-sulfate an AGM or Gel cell battery. There is no way to check and/or replace the water or electrolyte. Both options in section 16 start with checking the electrolyte which is not possible on an AGM.

 

While AGM batteries have excellent recovery attributes and most weak AGM batteries can be restored to near full capacity, by definition it is hard to argue with those saying an AGM cannot be de-sulfated.

 

I may be wrong but I believe Roger is discharging his battery in a controlled way and charging it in a normal manner, he is not de-sulfating it, if that is even a word.

 

Terry

[racer7]

That electrolyte loss, either from a wrong charger or simply a defective battery with an ineffective catalyst is what kills a lot of AGMs.

I've never manged to kill an Odyssey or had a problem of that type but I've had it happen with chinese AGMs-the result of which is I only use the American version. They do require different practices than wet batteries and it took me a while to understand the practical aspects of that when I first started using them years ago.

Still got wet batteries in cages and makers still supply them new- wish they used better, especially the folks who still park a battery right next to a hot motor. I can get 8 yrs or more out of a batt in a Mercedes (in the trunk) and generally only 1/2 of the for stuff up front next to the motor.