Harley denies warranty claim due to flags

[eddd]

 

I think Harley got this one right given the size and number of flags this guy has on the bike.

 

Link

[biometrics]

Really?

Really?

 

The Harley isn't designed to hold up to the wind drag of some flags mounted behind the bike at highway speed?

 

...and yet they apparently have no problem pulling a couple hundred pounds of sidecar bolted to one of their frames, with a passenger, or TWO?

 

...and even put trailer hitches on them and pull trailers?

 

What is wrong with this (mental) picture? I think there is a lot more to this story that the public has been made aware of... I don't particularly like Harley Davidson motorcycle products, but I can't see their corporation risking public relations suicide over a claim denial like this. There has to be more to the story that we don't know.

 

Could it be that this million mile Harley rider just feathered the clutch too much in the parades he has ridden in to maintain proper parade speed? Or that maybe the clutch wasn't properly installed to begin with?

[eddd]

...There has to be more to the story that we don't know.

 

That seems to always be the case.

 

Did you read that it was seven flags with the biggest being 3' by 5'. Evidently he rode with those at highway speed. The one story mentions transmission and clutch while the longer newspaper story indicated it was only the clutch. The amount of drag from that much flag material has to be be pretty substantial. It would be no surprise to me that the clutch might slip.

[smiller]

I'm not sure why you feel that HD has no problem with trailer towing and other non-engineered loads on the drivetrain given that the owner's manual specifically says not to. Whether it would result in a warranty denial would depend on the circumstances and dealer but there certainly have been warranty denials when the failure may be directly related to the extra load, such as a transmission failure. And the load of a couple of large flags at road speeds can be very high and easily worse than a trailer. A claim denial under these circumstances may or may not be a good PR move, but certainly within the scope of the warranty agreement.

 

"Ain't nobody gonna stop our flags, not even Harley-Davidson corporate," Zien said.

Harley-Davidson ain't-a-tryin' to stop his flags... only saying that they are not going to foot the bill for any drivetrain damage.

[biometrics]

Doesn't HD manufacture and sell sidecar rigs?

[smiller]

Doesn't HD manufacture and sell sidecar rigs?

I don't see why it matters whether they do or don't, the person in question wasn't using a sidecar nor is there any reason to assume that the loads are the same. A couple of large flags at high speed might easily create much more drag than a sidecar ever could. Apples and oranges as far as we know.

[Hoghead]

Doesn't HD manufacture and sell sidecar rigs?

I don't see why it matters whether they do or don't, the person in question wasn't using a sidecar nor is there any reason to assume that the loads are the same. A couple of large flags at high speed might easily create much more drag than a sidecar ever could. Apples and oranges as far as we know.

 

I've rode Harley's for the last 25 years and my experience with them is that this is just another of their tactics to avoid a warranty claim. At one time all their shops said if the customers used synthetic oil in their engines it would void the warranty....I always used synthetic but never had any problem. A very bad Co. for customer service.....or a lack of.....that is one of many reasons I'm now riding a BMW.....

[dirtrider]

I agree in there must be WAY more to this story.

 

Sorry this doesn't pass my common sense filter---

 

First off, what manufacturer even warrantees a clutch or brakes for wear?

 

Second, a vehicle clutch better be able to take the engine torque once locked up no matter what the vehicle loading. I can see the engine not being able to pull those large sails at speed but that is an engine/power/torque problem not a clutch annihilator.

 

What is the difference between his flags at hiway speed & my 110 mph Harley running into a 50mph head wind & being full tapped out at 98mph pulling at full power for a couple of hours?

 

If I had to guess it would be that he does a lot of parade duty & Harley gave him one free clutch as a good will & he burned another one up & expected another free one.

 

[Bud]

"More people should be flying flags. I believe a tattered flag is a beautiful thing," Zien said.

 

Different strokes for different folks.

 

I believe flying a tattered flag is disrespectful.

 

I'm surprised by the number of businesses that fly flags that are falling apart. Even in a small, conservative, Midwestern town in S. Illinois.

 

But then again, I'm kind of an old phart.

[Selden]

If I had to guess it would be that he does a lot of parade duty & Harley gave him one free clutch as a good will & he burned another one up & expected another free one.

As usual, you make a great deal of sense. Even with 7 flags, at highway speed, I just can't imagine clutch or drivetrain wear being a factor.

 

That said, this was a dumbass PR move by HD. I remember a (possibly apocryphal) story of a little old lady who had bought a battery-powered alarm clock from Sears. Every 2-3 years, she would go to the Sears store, and complain that her clock didn't work. A new guy said, "You need to replace the battery." The little old lady didn't care about no stinkin' battery, and an older salesman just gave her a new alarm clock for customer satisfaction reasons.

 

There was a tale here a few months ago from a guy who had lost his Airhawk cushion when he stood up at highway speed. The Airhawk people sent him a new cushion. PR value = priceless.

[eddd]

 

Stories like this are notorious for not getting or understanding what really happened. The reporter is given the assignment, spends a little time on the phone with each party taking note, and then writes it up. They likely have very little if any knowledge of motorcycles or wind resistance so they don't know what questions to ask to clarify what really happened. As far as they are concerned the chief task is to fill some space in the paper with a story for their average readers most of who also have limited knowledge of motorcycles and wind resistance.

[Ridgerunner]

Several years ago a good friend of mine who is a Motor Maid was traveling to an event in the west. A friend of hers also riding to the event had the twin cam bearing failure on her Harley and had to leave it at a dealer on the way. Not covered under warranty. Several thousand dollar repair. At the event Willy G. and his wife were the speakers. They passed out 3x5 cards so that people could ask questions. My friend asked why Harley would not admit that there was a problem with twin cam bearing failures. She was very sure that Willy G. read her card and showed it to his wife and looked right at her in the audience (she has met Willey G. several times). Anyway he put the card in the back of his stack and didn't read it. After the event he and his wife came to my friends table and asked about the card. She introduced the woman with the twin cam problem to Willy G. He asked what dealer was repairing the bike and to make a long story shorter, called the dealer and gave them his personal credit card to pay for the repairs. The difference between Harley and BMW we don't have a Willy G.

[Selden]

BMW may not have a Willy G, but they do have some dealers willing to go the extra mile for a customer. A few years ago a friend of mine was riding a fairly new (less than 10,000 miles, if I remember correctly) GS in the Iron Butt rally. The FD failed somewhere east of Phoenix, and she got a tow to a dealer. After explaining her situation to the dealer, he looked at a brand new GS on the show room floor, pulled the FD and put it on her GS, allowing her to continue with the rally.

[szurszewski]

hijack:

 

\

I believe flying a tattered flag is disrespectful.

 

I'm surprised by the number of businesses that fly flags that are falling apart. Even in a small, conservative, Midwestern town in S. Illinois.

 

But then again, I'm kind of an old phart.

 

+1 (the disrespectful part - not the old phart part)

 

The post office that has our route, though not the closest one, has a very large, VERY worn flag flying. I can envision situation in which a tattered flag could be a beautiful thing - on a battle field, in other circumstances of hardship, etc. - but I can't for the life of me figure out why this post office flies one. The best I can imagine is that they're possibly required to fly one, but don't have budget for a new one. But, still...

 

end hijack

[tallman]

BMW may not have a Willy G, but they do have some dealers willing to go the extra mile for a customer. A few years ago a friend of mine was riding a fairly new (less than 10,000 miles, if I remember correctly) GS in the Iron Butt rally. The FD failed somewhere east of Phoenix, and she got a tow to a dealer. After explaining her situation to the dealer, he looked at a brand new GS on the show room floor, pulled the FD and put it on her GS, allowing her to continue with the rally.

 

Selden,

 

We did that more than once.

Including a GS that called us from I 10 w/35,960 miles.

We picked it up, swapped FD's w/showroom bike and they were on the road in short order.

 

Maybe HD can solve this problem through their great e-commerce model?

 

I would think that the drag from 7 flags would be astronomical given the surface area involved.

[99Roadster]

It's not so much the clutch as the "accessory."

 

“The issue isn’t that the flags are heavy,” Harley spokeswoman Maripat Blankenheim told the Journal-Sentinel, “but they provide terrific drag on the engine and the transmission, especially when the bike is at highway speeds.”

 

"She added that the flag mounts that Zien used were not Harley products."

 

 

I think we can all relate to that.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Did you read that it was seven flags with the biggest being 3' by 5'. Evidently he rode with those at highway speed.

 

I did the math these guys offered here for flag-related aerodynamic drag. For a 3'x5' flag at 75 MPH, I came up with 22 pounds of drag force. At 75 MPH, that requires an extra 4.4 hp from the drivetrain. Does that matter?

 

How much power does his bike normally use at cruise? Some SWAGS here: I'll guess his bike peaks out at 90 horsepower, and has a top speed of 110 MPH. So to cruise at 75 MPH, he would only need about 28 horsepower. Maybe all seven flags aren't 3'x5', but let's guess that the other six flags add up to 9.5 horsepower, so his total flag power requirement is 14 hp (the flagpoles themselves will create significant additional drag). So now instead of 28 hp, the driveline has to make 42 hp - 50% more than Harley intended- on a continuous basis. It's one thing to briefly blast down the on-ramp at WOT, something else to ask for nearly half of your drivetrain's peak capability for mile upon mile, hour upon hour.

 

Reworking the math I found at this other site, I came up with 31 pounds of drag for the 3'x5' flag. So the engine loading from the flag could be even higher than my previous paragraph suggests.

 

Something else to consider: the bike in question was not a bike, it was a trike. The warranty was probably offered with the understanding that it was a trike, and therefore the driveline was already being burdened beyond its original design intent. So Zien had a driveline that was already bearing the burden of a trike's wind drag, and then added seven flags' (and poles') worth of wind drag on top of that.

 

I'm not terribly surprised that Harley considers this to be mistreatment of the driveline, but it still adds up to bad PR for them. If they had honored the warranty claim, they would have come out of this smelling like a rose, and I doubt it would have started a huge trend. Afterall, flying seven flags at highway speed must cause atrocious fuel economy and tire wear (not to mention it would quickly shred what must be expensive flags), so it's expensive for the owner even if the driveline is up to the task.

[Lincoln_Faller]

Interesting post as usual, Mitch. But why didn't you add into your calculations the drag occasioned by his quite sizeable beard?

[eddd]

 

Those are some impressive numbers Mitch. They should certainly quiet the "it's only a piece of material" crowd.

 

Harley may well have just stepped in it, but who knows what this guy is like to deal with. He's already made it clear he's not going to change, so is Harley going to concede to the next problem, and the one after that?

 

Since he's already taken this flag thing to this extreme what's to say it will stop here? The guy seems to be out there on the fringe, at least in my opinion.

 

 

[dirtrider]

Afternoon Mitch

 

Now remove the windshield drag, front fairing drag, & rider upper cross section drag that the windshield doesn't cover from the exposed flag drag.

 

If that Harley's clutch can't take the added drag then someone like me that rides darn near triple digits on most freeways should NEVER buy a Harley.

[eddd]

Afternoon Mitch

 

Now remove the windshield drag, front fairing drag, & rider upper cross section drag that the windshield doesn't cover from the exposed flag drag.

 

If that Harley's clutch can't take the added drag then someone like me that rides darn near triple digits on most freeways should NEVER buy a Harley.

 

I'm sure it is not that simple. The windscreen, fairing, and exposed parts of the rider do not create a clean air space all the way to beyond the flags.

[dirtrider]

Afternoon Eddd

 

Nope, not quite that simple but that large frontal mass sure pokes a BIG hole in the air at freeway speeds.

 

I run a flag on my Harley, it isn't nearly as large as the ones in question but it sits on top of my rear case & hardly flaps around at freeway speeds so it is in relatively clean air that I or my windshield blocks.

[RedMac]

BMW may not have a Willy G, but they do have some dealers willing to go the extra mile for a customer. A few years ago a friend of mine was riding a fairly new (less than 10,000 miles, if I remember correctly) GS in the Iron Butt rally. The FD failed somewhere east of Phoenix, and she got a tow to a dealer. After explaining her situation to the dealer, he looked at a brand new GS on the show room floor, pulled the FD and put it on her GS, allowing her to continue with the rally.

 

Selden,

 

We did that more than once.

Including a GS that called us from I 10 w/35,960 miles.

We picked it up, swapped FD's w/showroom bike and they were on the road in short order.

 

Maybe HD can solve this problem through their great e-commerce model?

 

I would think that the drag from 7 flags would be astronomical given the surface area involved.

 

Interesting.. I had a final drive failure strand me in Grand Junction at a *new* BMW dealership that was also a Harley Dealership. The parts guy who was handling my *warranty* repair was a Harley guy through and through. I suggested that just *perhaps* they could pull a final drive off one of the showroom bikes to get me one my way. Was told "No f**in way that's going to happen" So I sat there for three days waiting for a final drive from BMW.

 

I can't say that I was impressed with the overall experience, thought the BMW tech they had was an outstanding guy who works his ass off to get me on the road once the part came in.

[Twisties]

BMW may not have a Willy G, but they do have some dealers willing to go the extra mile for a customer. A few years ago a friend of mine was riding a fairly new (less than 10,000 miles, if I remember correctly) GS in the Iron Butt rally. The FD failed somewhere east of Phoenix, and she got a tow to a dealer. After explaining her situation to the dealer, he looked at a brand new GS on the show room floor, pulled the FD and put it on her GS, allowing her to continue with the rally.

 

Selden,

 

We did that more than once.

Including a GS that called us from I 10 w/35,960 miles.

We picked it up, swapped FD's w/showroom bike and they were on the road in short order.

 

Maybe HD can solve this problem through their great e-commerce model?

 

I would think that the drag from 7 flags would be astronomical given the surface area involved.

 

Interesting.. I had a final drive failure strand me in Grand Junction at a *new* BMW dealership that was also a Harley Dealership. The parts guy who was handling my *warranty* repair was a Harley guy through and through. I suggested that just *perhaps* they could pull a final drive off one of the showroom bikes to get me one my way. Was told "No f**in way that's going to happen" So I sat there for three days waiting for a final drive from BMW.

 

I can't say that I was impressed with the overall experience, thought the BMW tech they had was an outstanding guy who works his ass off to get me on the road once the part came in.

 

Yeah, I had the same experience there with the sidestand pin. Finally ziptied it all together, called a dealer three days ahead, and rode with no pin in there.

[mistral]

I think Dave should hoist the white flag.

 

Ron