Solution for Keeping Ethanol out of Bikes

[RTJohn]

So recently I passed through Brookings, OR. (Sorry Jan, we were kinda in a hurry). There was a 76 station on the 101 that sold fuel without ethanol. I think they termed it "clean" gas. It was pumped through its own hose. It was 3.99/gal and 91 octane while the "unclean" (?) was 92 octane. While it was more expensive, it was my choice. BTW, the bike didn't seem to notice anything, not that I expected it to.

[Indy Dave]

On our ride down to START, Eric and I noticed that several of the stations down that way and near bodies of water had Ethanol free fuel. Many had signs promoting the gas. I'm not sure how much it helps having a tank full here and there, and in our case, quickly run through the tank.

[areyouolsen]

How empty was your tank when you filled it? The reason you and your bike likely didn't notice it was - if, that is, you still had a gallon or so remaining - that it mixed with the "unclean" gas already in your tank. If you're able, try going for a few tanks in a row and measure the performance to get objective data.

 

I was past fumes when I found a station that had ethanol-free gas and could tell immediately that the good stuff was running through. Or, it could easily have been my mind telling me what I expected to see. The station is 90 minutes out of my way and, living in SoCal, I don't have much opportunity to buy the stuff, so I can't make a real objective argument for or against, so I'll stick to my preconceived notions and say that ethanol blows.

[Norm 88]

You can do a search on pure-gas.org, it will give you a list by states of stations with ethanol free gas. I have used it in Wa. Or. and Canada. The BMW and Suzuki ran the same with either gas.

[Jriffe108]

"Unclean" fuel had up to 10% ethanol which effectively raises the octane rating, about the only thing ethanol is good for. Not allowed in aircraft engines though, tells you something

 

[Fathom]

I use about an ounce of Starbrite in every tankful to combat the (many) negative effects of ethanol. That, and keeping up my membership in AMA and taking part in all of their online citizen lobbying efforts. If the cornholers are successful in getting 15% to be the new standard, we -- and powersports enthusiasts as a whole -- are all royally screwed.

[EddyQ]

You can do a search on pure-gas.org, it will give you a list by states of stations with ethanol free gas. I have used it in Wa. Or. and Canada. The BMW and Suzuki ran the same with either gas.

 

Thanks for that. I had no idea I had options in my area.

 

I'm thinking it will fill my small engine tanks. Generator, lawn tractor, snow blower . . .

[Marty Hill]

I've used that same station in brookings several times. There are a few non-e stations in nor/cal but you have to look for them.

[walton66]

Her in FL, at least the areas I frequent, I can buy ethanol free gas at many stations because many boat engines will puke on the mix. It's called Rec-90. I use it in all my small engines because it seems to delay the deteriorating effects on the plastic hoses and soft parts. I but it in the RT if it's going to sit still for a couple weeks.

[mickeym3]

And sure enough, there's an app for that...

 

pure-gas.org

[Smoky]

Here in BC, Shell and Esso premium don't have ethanol. I use it in the GTL that calls for premium, and all my small engines in my yard and lawn equipment.

 

My new to me, 1993 GS/PD gets regular gas with corn-juice, but I think it would run on anything. By the way, I'm loving this GS, its just a hoot to ride.

[Ken S]

I, too, am concerned about Ethanol in the fuel I use in my RT -- especially after the carbon-buildup problems I had in January ( see post ). I had just used a couple tanks of non-ethanol fuel before parking it for a couple months.

 

But others here suggested that the problem may have been related to not enough detergent in the gas. They suggested using only stations belonging to the Top Tier organization which monitors detergent content ( link ) .

 

So, avoid ethanol, get enough detergent? What's the answer?

[Indy Dave]

My understanding about Ethanol is that it breaks down rubber parts - hoses, seals, etc. "Flexfuel" engines supposedly are engineered to withstand whatever caustic issues the Ethanol causes. Weedwackers, lawn mowers, boats, etc (carbureted) and fuel lines are susceptible.

 

There may be other issues with Ethanol, so others please chime in.

 

Interestingly - I have a friend who hauls Ethanol. When they add it to the tanker, they just dump the percentage in and the only mixing it gets is as the tanker is on the road. So it's possible to have pockets of gas or ethanol with higher or lower concentrations at the gas pump.

[foundationapps]

Many places in Idaho have "no-corn" gas. Town I live in has 4 strings of stations, with no corn gas. A small private operations sells 3 grades of no corn fuel. Needless to say, he's busy. I also run a 48 Panhead that was rebuilt in 1972 to 80" and with STD heads. LOVES the no corn stuff, I add MMO to the fuel as well. Power and milage increase.

[foundationapps]

My understanding about Ethanol is that it breaks down rubber parts - hoses, seals, etc. "Flexfuel" engines supposedly are engineered to withstand whatever caustic issues the Ethanol causes. Weedwackers, lawn mowers, boats, etc (carbureted) and fuel lines are susceptible.

 

There may be other issues with Ethanol, so others please chime in.

 

Interestingly - I have a friend who hauls Ethanol. When they add it to the tanker, they just dump the percentage in and the only mixing it gets is as the tanker is on the road. So it's possible to have pockets of gas or ethanol with higher or lower concentrations at the gas pump.

 

Roger that on the rot issues. I run corn free fuel in my 1100RT, but more importantly in my normally aspirated 48 Panhead. The absolute CRAP that drips out of these small crossover SUVs running all over these days reinforces what friend of mind says about fuels these days. "They need computer management systems to burn this crap". He's a fuel analyst for DOD (not logistics type).

 

Interestingly, this old machine with single points, dual fire, and a manual advance can burn ANYTHING you put in it, until you run corn gas through it. Then it gets picky in starting and retard/advance issues in the engine. Spark plugs always tell the story. Anything with an O-ring, or conventional gaskets will be "life challenged" by ethanol in it. High altitudes mess with the combustion of the corn gas as well. Computer managed systems work it out, but, the physical effect on the engine is still present.

[Sonor]

Not off roading the topic, just expanding it.

I believe the RT requires 90 octane fuel. So if you had a choice between using 89 E free vs. 91 with E, which would you choose?

[Marty Hill]

89 free.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

So, avoid ethanol, get enough detergent? What's the answer?

 

I have no doubt that ethanol can cause problems with marine engines due to the water it hangs onto, but for other engines, I'm less convinced. I've been using premium fuel, without regard to alcohol content, in my lawn mower since I bought it in 2002. Last week it began its fifteenth season of duty with no indication of trouble, starting on the first pull as always.

 

My 1999 RT and my 2009 RT likewise use premium fuel without regard for ethanol content. No issues.

 

It may be that I've been serendipitously chosen stations with ethanol-free premium fuel whenever I decided to fill up, but this seems unlikely.

[Gene#3]

Admin edited for political content.

[terryofperry]

So, avoid ethanol, get enough detergent? What's the answer?

 

I have no doubt that ethanol can cause problems with marine engines due to the water it hangs onto, but for other engines, I'm less convinced. I've been using premium fuel, without regard to alcohol content, in my lawn mower since I bought it in 2002. Last week it began its fifteenth season of duty with no indication of trouble, starting on the first pull as always.

 

My 1999 RT and my 2009 RT likewise use premium fuel without regard for ethanol content. No issues.

 

It may be that I've been serendipitously chosen stations with ethanol-free premium fuel whenever I decided to fill up, but this seems unlikely.

 

I have found the same results with 87 in all of my lawn equipment, some of it sits most of the winter without prepping, draining, or adding any type of treatment. If the fuel system is designed for it I see no issue with Ethanol, other than political.

 

Terry

[Indy Dave]

So, avoid ethanol, get enough detergent? What's the answer?

 

I have no doubt that ethanol can cause problems with marine engines due to the water it hangs onto, but for other engines, I'm less convinced. I've been using premium fuel, without regard to alcohol content, in my lawn mower since I bought it in 2002. Last week it began its fifteenth season of duty with no indication of trouble, starting on the first pull as always.

 

My 1999 RT and my 2009 RT likewise use premium fuel without regard for ethanol content. No issues.

 

It may be that I've been serendipitously chosen stations with ethanol-free premium fuel whenever I decided to fill up, but this seems unlikely.

 

I have found the same results with 87 in all of my lawn equipment, some of it sits most of the winter without prepping, draining, or adding any type of treatment. If the fuel system is designed for it I see no issue with Ethanol, other than political.

 

Terry

 

+1. It can damage fuel system rubber not designed for it. One of my buddies (and others) feel the bike runs better on non ethanol. As yet, I've not seen anything definitive to support this other than The Hawthorne effect.

[Red]

I always fill my machine with no corn gas at the end of the year when winterizing. I would run a lot more of it but I like the additive Techron in Chevron gas and I don't think the non corn gas has additives at all, much less Techron. Yes, I could pack around a bottle of the stuff and add at each fueling. I think that's just going a little too far and what a PITA it'd be.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

+1. It can damage fuel system rubber not designed for it.

 

Is there any vehicle made in the past 15 years or so that is not designed to tolerate mild ethanol blends (E5/E10)?

[Mike]

I haven't seen much of this in Illinois, but in Wisconsin quite a few of the stations sell ethanol-free premium (91 or 93 RON). I haven't noticed any difference in my motorcycles, but I swear that my cage (Grand Cherokee V8) runs better and gets consistently better mileage running the premium gasoline fuel; my mileage jumps by roughly 2 mpg. It's got a cylinder deactivation feature and my guess is that, for whatever reason, it converts to 4-cylinder operation more readily. However, given the lower cost of the ethanol blend, it is at best a wash.

 

Regardless, I will generally buy pure gasoline just to make a political statement (yeah, dumb . . . I know). The ethanol mandate is one of those things that kind of chaps me.

 

However, as Mitch notes, I don't think there's any maintenance-related reason to avoid 10% ethanol; everything that's been sold for the past few years is designed to stand up to the corrosive effects of ethanol.

 

[Indy Dave]

You're right, Mitch [as usual]. I was conflating 'flexfuel' vehicles with non-flex fuel, forgetting that flexfuel is another thing altogether.

[Dark Angel]

+1. It can damage fuel system rubber not designed for it.

 

Is there any vehicle made in the past 15 years or so that is not designed to tolerate mild ethanol blends (E5/E10)?

 

Most motorcycles on the road come with recommendations to NOT use ethanol blends of any percentage. The rest are only rated for 10% and no more. Cars are a different thing entirely, though my wife's 2014 Corolla run noticeable worse (more sluggish, worse fuel consumption) on 10% ethanol than it does on 95RON (91AKI) "premium" non-ethanol fuel. 98RON doesn't make any noticable difference to how the car feels though. My bikes will only ever get ethanol blended fuel if it's a choice between that and pushing. For the record, I'm a big proponent of renewable energy.

[Indy Dave]

I did a little googling. What I'd forgotten was that some places are going to E15 fuel. Significantly E15 is specifically NOT to be used in motorcycles. More on this in a second. But first . . . .

 

According to the EPA: E10 and E15 are blends of ethanol and gasoline. The number after the "E" indicates the percentage of ethanol by volume.

 

Most of the gasoline sold in the U.S. contains up to 10% ethanol—the amount varies by region. All automakers approve blends up to E10 in their gasoline vehicles.

 

As of 2011, EPA began allowing the use of E15 in model year 2001 and newer gasoline vehicles.2 Pumps dispensing E15 must be labeled (see example). A vehicle's owner manual may indicate the maximum ethanol content recommended for it by the automaker.

 

Ethanol contains about one-third less energy than gasoline. So, vehicles will typically go 3% to 4% fewer miles per gallon on E10 and 4% to 5% fewer on E15 than on 100% gasoline.

 

I think most of us knew that. I knew that Ethanol had less energy per gallon, thus the false economy of running E85 fuel. Yes it's cheaper at the pump, but it doesn't take you as far.

 

According to this cycle world article ,

 

E15 is a no-no for bikes and other engines. I'm wondering if E15 is more of a risk to carbureted than FI engines, but I digress. From Cycle World:

 

People are up in arms over recent EPA waivers that allow but do not require up to 15 percent ethanol to be blended into gasoline. The 15 percent blend, called E15, would be available only from blender pumps clearly labeled “Passenger vehicles only. Use in other vehicles, engines and equipment may violate Federal law.”

Here is the EPA’s list of vehicles that should not be fueled with E15:

Motorcycles

Vehicles with heavy-duty engines, such as school buses and delivery trucks

Off-road vehicles, such as boats and snowmobiles

Engines in off-road equipment, such as lawnmowers and chainsaws

Model-year 2000 and older cars, light-duty trucks and medium-duty passenger vehicles (later changed to model-year 2007 and older)

Why do E10 and now E15 alcohol-gasoline blends exist? The Energy Independence and Security Act (EISA) of 2007 requires that renewable fuels be blended into transportation fuels and also mandates that the EPA ensures that these renewable fuels, from production to use, actually emit less greenhouse gas than the petroleum-based fuel they replace.

Two motivations behind EISA are:

1) to cut U.S. dependence on foreign oil;

2) to reduce production of greenhouse gas from vehicles.

ETHANOL IN GASOLINE: THE PROBLEMS

**** Because ethanol contains one-third less energy per gallon than gasoline, adding ethanol to gasoline leans out the fuel-air mixture, possibly enough to cause damage. Several manufacturers of small engines have said they will not honor warranties if fuels containing more than 10 percent ethanol are used.

Recent-model automobiles have digital fuel injection capable of automatically compensating for this leaning effect of E15 fuel. “Yellow-cap” or “Flex-Fuel” vehicles, which make up about four percent of the U.S. auto/light-truck fleet, are able to compensate for fuels containing up to 85 percent alcohol (E85).

**** Metal fuel-system parts can corrode as a result of exposure to alcohol. Fuel additives are sold to inhibit this. Solvency of alcohol in certain fuel-system plastics, rubber and seal materials used in older vehicles can lead to softening and swelling. Fuel additives cannot prevent this.

**** Alcohol absorbs water from any source (even from the atmosphere). Once alcohol that is dissolved in gasoline has absorbed sufficient water, it can separate from the gasoline and settle to the bottom of the tank. If this separated water-alcohol mixture is drawn into the engine’s fuel-system, the engine will run lean and may misfire or stop running.

**** Some fear that the E15 fuel remaining in the blender pump’s hose and pump, when mistakenly mixed into the small fuel volume of a motorcycle’s or other small engine’s tank, might result in a mixture lean enough to cause engine damage. To prevent this, EPA will require customers using the E15 blender pump to buy at least four gallons of fuel. This will dilute the fuel that remains in the hose and pump enough to make it harmless to your bike.

 

One thing I learned is that Ethanol can corrode metal fuel system parts on systems not designed for it, so it can be more than a rubber/seal issue.

 

 

 

 

[Trobinson]

I know in my '07 Infiniti running non-ethanol gas improves the fuel economy quite a bit. I believe it was in Arizona we had ethanol free gas and got around 27mpg or so freeway. With ethanol we get maybe 24.