Cold Start Issue '04 R1150R

[Michaelr11]

7 hours ago, Achilles8857 said:

Took a minute or three for the choke-on idle to stabilize (rising from ~750 to ~1100).

Took the bike out for a test ride, topped off the tank. Choke off idle is stable ~1100.

Stopped and let it rest for ~30 minutes, it started up immediately again, no trouble.

Rides really well, so this is how this bike is meant to start/run? I think I like!

 

Yes!     After all the years, any adjustments or stretch in the throttle and choke cables, that is a surprising good result for choke-ON idle.

When starting the bike (cold) I would push the choke lever ON, but then I would also use the throttle to make sure the bike ran at 1000 + rpm.  Start the bike when you are fully geared up and ready to ride. Start, put into 1st gear, ride away.  By the time you have gone 1-2 miles turn off the choke.

[dirtrider]

7 hours ago, Achilles8857 said:

It did die after a minute, but then re-started immediately (no sputtering) right up and ran well afterwards.

Took a minute or three for the choke-on idle to stabilize (rising from ~750 to ~1100).

 

Evening Larry

 

Next cold start try holding the choke lever ALL the way up in the spring loaded UP position until the engine stabilizes (you will need to hold it there as it won't stay in that position without holding it there). See if that helps keep it running the first few seconds after cold start.

[Achilles8857]

4 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Evening Larry

 

Next cold start try holding the choke lever ALL the way up in the spring loaded UP position until the engine stabilizes (you will need to hold it there as it won't stay in that position without holding it there). See if that helps keep it running the first few seconds after cold start.

OK will do.

 

The following  *may* be a separate issue. Had the bike out for about 4 hours today, mostly city riding, stop and go, 45 mph typically.

Occasionally as one might imagine had  to reach for some extra throttle to accelerate quickly. Out of, or around, a traffic situation or to pull thru a traffic light.. The throttle hesitates - doesn’t respond to aggressive twisting at about 2500 to 2750 rpm. This was observed in 3/4 and perhaps 5th gear. This has never happened before. Accelerating *gradually* thru that RPM range, the acceleration is smooth and strong. It is like a dead spot, but only when really goosing the throttle in that range. The only way to rectify was to relax the throttle and  then smoothly twist it thru the acceleration. If I were in a really tight situation, this unresponsiveness could be  trouble; I was lucky today.

 

A second issueL when sitting at idle at (say) a stoplight. Non-choke idle is at 1050 rpm on a warm engine. Several times during this ride, while sitting at idle, the engine would ‘hiccup’. In other words come very close to stalling for the very briefest of moments, then resume idling right back to baseline. Have never observed that before, either. Not a huge problem, but troubling. As the ride progressed, the frequency seemed to drop off; it happened only 2 or 3 times the entire ride. Unsure if these things might be related.

 

If another thread is needed to diagnose this, no problem.

[Hosstage]

My first thought is a vacuum leak, but I don't want to derail the thread.

[dirtrider]

10 hours ago, Achilles8857 said:

OK will do.

 

The following  *may* be a separate issue. Had the bike out for about 4 hours today, mostly city riding, stop and go, 45 mph typically.

Occasionally as one might imagine had  to reach for some extra throttle to accelerate quickly. Out of, or around, a traffic situation or to pull thru a traffic light.. The throttle hesitates - doesn’t respond to aggressive twisting at about 2500 to 2750 rpm. This was observed in 3/4 and perhaps 5th gear. This has never happened before. Accelerating *gradually* thru that RPM range, the acceleration is smooth and strong. It is like a dead spot, but only when really goosing the throttle in that range. The only way to rectify was to relax the throttle and  then smoothly twist it thru the acceleration. If I were in a really tight situation, this unresponsiveness could be  trouble; I was lucky today.

 

A second issueL when sitting at idle at (say) a stoplight. Non-choke idle is at 1050 rpm on a warm engine. Several times during this ride, while sitting at idle, the engine would ‘hiccup’. In other words come very close to stalling for the very briefest of moments, then resume idling right back to baseline. Have never observed that before, either. Not a huge problem, but troubling. As the ride progressed, the frequency seemed to drop off; it happened only 2 or 3 times the entire ride. Unsure if these things might be related.

 

If another thread is needed to diagnose this, no problem.

Morning Larry 

 

Occasionally as one might imagine had  to reach for some extra throttle to accelerate quickly. Out of, or around, a traffic situation or to pull thru a traffic light.. The throttle hesitates - doesn’t respond to aggressive twisting at about 2500 to 2750 rpm.-- This could be one or more of a number of things. From low fuel pressure, to a TPS (Throttle Position Sensor), to a stick coil problem, to an engine sensor problem, to a spark plug issue, to ??????  

 

Start by putting some more miles on that motorcycle & see if you can run most of the fuel out of the tank then put new fuel in. 

 

After you get that fuel used up & new fuel in that motorcycle (IF) it still acts up then install new spark plugs & see what happens. 

 

If it then still acts up after riding some more miles & new spark plugs then you are probably going to have to work your way through all the engine controls & sensors as well as do a fuel pressure/flow test. All but the stick coils are somewhat testable at home, bad stick coils are very difficult to test for without new (or known good) coils to install for an A/B test. 

 

The misfire at idle might be related to the above, or something else  like the o2 sensor, or o2 sensor wire pigtail routing. So with that idle miss--  start by verifying that the o2 sensor wire pig tail isn't running along, or close to, the right hand side lower spark plug wire. On twin spark 1150 engines cross talk between the o2 sensor pigtail harness & the R/H side lower spark plug wire can drive the idle crazy at times. (there is BMW service bulletin to completely re-route the o2 sensor wire away from the lower spark plug wire).

 

 

[Achilles8857]

13 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

Morning Larry

 

Start by putting some more miles on that motorcycle & see if you can run most of the fuel out of the tank then put new fuel in.

 

I should've mentioned that I removed and vacated the fuel tank during the upgrades concurrent with diagnosing this problem.

These issues are on a completely new tank of fuel. But I will run that gas out and replace the plugs in any case.

 

[Michaelr11]

12 hours ago, Achilles8857 said:

The throttle hesitates - doesn’t respond to aggressive twisting at about 2500 to 2750 rpm. This was observed in 3/4 and perhaps 5th gear.

 

Follow the recommendations of DR.  I will add this.  Your description, to me, says too low rpm, too high gear.  "Aggressive twist" and 2500 rpm don't mix together well in 3rd gear or higher.  If you need to drop the throttle that low, and you aren't just coasting, drop down to 2nd, and feather the clutch.

 

For the "hiccup", make sure the air bypass in the throttle body is clean - the big brass screw and the port itself.  Run a bottle of techron through a tank of gas.

[dirtrider]

3 hours ago, Achilles8857 said:

I should've mentioned that I removed and vacated the fuel tank during the upgrades concurrent with diagnosing this problem.

These issues are on a completely new tank of fuel. But I will run that gas out and replace the plugs in any case.

 

Afternoon Larry 

 

OK, it sounds like you got most anything that was in the fuel tank removed & now have new fuel in it so that is probably not the problem.

 

With your  "Non-choke idle is at 1050 rpm on a warm engine" that isn't too bad so your BBS passages are probably not really plugged up (at least not enough to cause an idling issues) as only air passes through the BBS system they can't cause an idle miss. 

 

I guess if it were my motorcycle I would put some Techron concentrate in the fuel tank (that can help clean your fuel injectors) then ride that motorcycle for while. (a slightly dripping, or poorly spraying, fuel injector could easily cause your warm engine idle occasional  miss).

 

If it doesn't get better after riding it for a while then install new spark plugs & see if that improves anything. 

 

Definitely check your o2 sensor pigtail harness routing as BMW had a service bulletin on correcting that for poor idle quality & low speed mis-firing. 

 

 

[Achilles8857]

3 hours ago, Michaelr11 said:

 

Follow the recommendations of DR.  I will add this.  Your description, to me, says too low rpm, too high gear.  "Aggressive twist" and 2500 rpm don't mix together well in 3rd gear or higher.  If you need to drop the throttle that low, and you aren't just coasting, drop down to 2nd, and feather the clutch.

 

For the "hiccup", make sure the air bypass in the throttle body is clean - the big brass screw and the port itself.  Run a bottle of techron through a tank of gas.

Regarding too low rpm / too high gear. I thought that as well; I will adjust my riding habits but in the past I have sometimes been ‘lazy’ like that, not gearing down to accelerate when at low rpms but I can tell right off if I’m geared too low, but not because of a dead spot in the throttle.

 

The hiccup has gone away. Rode several hours today to make my contribution to increased atmospheric C02 levels. Gassed up for a 1/2 hour ride home, no appreciable difference in the dead spot issue.

 

I had thought to try non-alcoholic fuel but alcohol-supplemented 93 octane hasn’t caused me any troubles up to now. So I will try DR’s Techron concentrate suggestion and also the swap in new plugs.

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, Achilles8857 said:

Regarding too low rpm / too high gear. I thought that as well; I will adjust my riding habits but in the past I have sometimes been ‘lazy’ like that, not gearing down to accelerate when at low rpms but I can tell right off if I’m geared too low, but not because of a dead spot in the throttle.

 

The hiccup has gone away. Rode several hours today to make my contribution to increased atmospheric C02 levels. Gassed up for a 1/2 hour ride home, no appreciable difference in the dead spot issue.

 

I had thought to try non-alcoholic fuel but alcohol-supplemented 93 octane hasn’t caused me any troubles up to now. So I will try DR’s Techron concentrate suggestion and also the swap in new plugs.

Afternoon Larry 

 

With all you have done to that motorcycle you might try another TPS re-learn (just to eliminate that).

 

I know you have already done one but if you disconnected the battery or replaced the CCP at any time after you did the TPS re-learn then you really should do another.

 

Just remove fuse #5 for about 5 minutes, then re-install fuse, then turn key to ON (do not start) then fully open & close twist grip twice.  

[Achilles8857]

50 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

I know you have already done one but if you disconnected the battery or replaced the CCP at any time after you did the TPS re-learn then you really should do another.

 

Just remove fuse #5 for about 5 minutes, then re-install fuse, then turn key to ON (do not start) then fully open & close twist grip twice.  

I did not de-energize the electrical system after the re-learn but will take the bike thru another cycle in any case.

[Achilles8857]

On 12/30/2020 at 4:03 PM, dirtrider said:

Next cold start try holding the choke lever ALL the way up in the spring loaded UP position until the engine stabilizes (you will need to hold it there as it won't stay in that position without holding it there). See if that helps keep it running the first few seconds after cold start.

This works. The cold-starting issue is a non-issue at this point.

 

On 12/31/2020 at 3:32 PM, dirtrider said:

Just remove fuse #5 for about 5 minutes, then re-install fuse, then turn key to ON (do not start) then fully open & close twist grip twice.  

Done, but still experiencing the dead spot issue. Gearing down helps of course. Relaxing on the throttle (not all the way, but just slightly, w/o gearing down) just before accelerating it cures this.

 

On 12/31/2020 at 10:51 AM, dirtrider said:

Definitely check your o2 sensor pigtail harness routing as BMW had a service bulletin on correcting that for poor idle quality & low speed mis-firing.

Checked. There is only about 1" of cable travel where the RHS lower spark plug wire and the OXS sensor wiring run directly adjacent to one another. Otherwise, there at least 1/2" offset between the two and this, only for about 4". I've never experienced any low speed misfiring or poor idle quality on this bike. This throttle dead spot issue is not accompanied by any mis-firing. After the bike is warm in 1~3 minutes, depending on outside air temps, idle is just fine.

[dirtrider]

10 minutes ago, Achilles8857 said:

Checked. There is only about 1" of cable travel where the RHS lower spark plug wire and the OXS sensor wiring run directly adjacent to one another. Otherwise, there at least 1/2" offset between the two and this, only for about 4". I've never experienced any low speed misfiring or poor idle quality on this bike. This throttle dead spot issue is not accompanied by any mis-firing. After the bike is warm in 1~3 minutes, depending on outside air temps, idle is just fine.

Afternoon Larry 

 

OK, sounds like your fueling is just a little weak in the flat area so maybe give it some time using Techron concentrate in each tank fill-up to clean your fuel injectors. If no improvement then  try new spark plugs,  make sure that the lower spark plug  wires are FULLY seated in the ignition coil. Possibly verify that the engine sensors are functioning properly, etc. 

 

Otherwise if it doesn't clear up you will probably have to give it a warm engine fuel flow/pressure test, check TPS adjustment, maybe even send the fuel injectors out to be properly cleaned.

[Achilles8857]

On 1/3/2021 at 11:17 AM, dirtrider said:

....give it some time using Techron concentrate in each tank fill-up to clean your fuel injectors.

Bike seems to be running just fine after putting a few miles with the Techron. Let's call this one solved!

Thanks to all who contributed!